4 Games For Rome

Discussion in 'Hockey Talk' started by maineblackbear, Jun 7, 2011.

  1. maineblackbear

    maineblackbear
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    This is what he deserved.

    Good call by the NHL.

    Still, the Horton-Rome trade off definately favors Vancouver. Looked on different boards today...amazed at all the Canuck fans who blame Horton for the hit. Saying he had it coming to him. Saying Horton skated into HIM and he should have been responsible enough to avoid Rome.

    Lots of vitriol being thrown around.

    Later
     
  2. Connecticut

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    There's always going to be some idiots. Horton did not deserve the injury, nobody does. He'll tell you himself he should have had his head up, but that's a different story and doesn't make the hit any better.

    I have no problem with the suspension, but I still don't see any difference between Chara's hit and Rome's.
     
  3. Die-hard1

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    I agree, it was deserved and I'm glad the NHL did the right thing. There's really no need for hits like that, even if Scott Stevens is a rich man because of them.

    I agree with Jeff - not a bad tradeoff at all for the Nucks.
     
  4. rikster

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    Not sure if I agree he deserved 4, but it is what it is and hopefully Horton will be fine for next season...

    Some in the media feel that Horton was admiring his pass far too long, and your comments would support that given that you feel the hit was very late....If it was very late then that means you had lots of time to get the head up, especially in a charged up game in the middle of the ice...

    While some fans are going vitriol on the internet, some fans needed a police escort to get out of the TD Centre last night...

    Regarding the hit, I'm with those who think the real damage may have been when Horton's head hit the ice...

    I had a look around the non Canuck message boards last night and again today and the range of opinions varied...from it was a 2 minute penalty to a 1 or 2 game suspension ...

    From CalPuck, probably the most anti Vancouver board and their most anti Canuck poster, Mel Bridgeman comes this...

    "As far as the suspension goes, I guess injury factors into it as i thought the 5 and a game was enough. The hit was late for sure, but i would suggest that the concusion could of been the result of the head bang to the ice."

    I guess the Colin Campbell factor finally comes into play...Why not, finally, after all of these years, make a very strong statement about a north/south hit and kick the player out of the finals...

    Game 3 of the finals is the place to do it, and the fact that the injury is to a player on Colin Campbells son's team will certainly be discussed and questioned...

    Excuse me if I smile watching Thornton being interviewed and saying the league needs to get this out of the game....Good thing Thornton hasn't read Kevin Duponts recent comments where he sez he has finally come to the conclusion that fighting needs to be taken out of the game...

    Thornton was running around like the goon he is and lost it when kicked out, he is what the game needs to get rid of and while Julien was talking about getting rid of fingers being pointed at somebodys mouth and how it makes the legue look bush league, how does he feel Thorntons actions make the league look?...

    If Thornton isn't being an idiot, does Rome step up to make a statement is the argument some in the media are voicing...

    In any event, get rid of hits to the head and get rid of idiots who can't play like Thornton and the game is better....

    Take care...
     
  5. maineblackbear

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    My thoughts are not that he was admiring his pass. My thoughts are that he was anticipating the return pass. If we watch closely, we see that he had turned his body in that direction a split-second before the impact.

    I dont know if the hit was blindside, as much as Horton had just turned in the direction of his pass right before impact.

    Personally, I think the extent of injury needs to be taken out of the issue. Horton suffered a concussion. Its awful, but that should NOT be considered in terms of a consequence. The same exact hit could result in a career ending concussion for 1 player, a concussion that causes 10 missed games for another, and no harmful effects at all for a 3rd guy.

    Shawn Thornton is NOT the typical goon. The guy can play the game. I guess I didn't see what you saw last night. I saw a guy who finished every check with intensity, but NONE that crossed any line at all. I saw a guy who was supercharged to be back in the line-up who came to play with the mindset that he was going to get his teammates pumped up. Did he get in guys faces? Yup he did. I have also watched Kesler running his mouth at Bruin players in this series. I saw a guy who was furious that he was kicked out of the game for what he said, rather than what he did.

    I dont know. It sucks that Horton is out. A Rome-Horton trade off kills the Bruins. They may live off the emotion in game 4...but beyond that, without Horton I can't see them winning more than 1 more game.

    Nucks in 6. Game is over now. For real.

    Later
     
  6. Die-hard1

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    I agree with you Jeff - I saw a blindside hit that wasn't needed. He's been suspended, they did the right thing, it's over and done with.

    I disagree that the Bruins are done without Horton - they are a team that is pissed about their player being knocked out of the game, and they're going to try and do everything they can to win because of it.

    My concern would be, if I was a Bruins fan, they embarrassed the Nucks last night when there was no reason to. Teams don't forget that - I think the Nucks are going to come out twice as hard as last game because they were embarrassed and they want to get revenge. They'll be pushing as hard as they can to win next game, much harder than game 3.
     
  7. rikster

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    Brian Burke consulted...

    Well doesn't that just take the cake...

    The league puts in a puppet head of discipline before game 1 so that Colin Campbell doesn't favor his sons team and now they ask Burkey for guidence on suspending Rome?...

    The fact that Burkey was fired by Vancouver ownership and was miffed that he wasn't invited to the Trevor Linden cerimony wouldn't cause him to be a tad bias, would it?...

    This on the heels of setting a precident with the suspension itself...

    Now, maybe at the end of the day nobody is conspiring against Vancouver, but how dumb do you have to be to not get that the optics are very poor, or maybe you just don't care?...

    Take care...
     
  8. Connecticut

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    Re: Brian Burke consulted...

    All in all, I think we should count ourselves lucky as Canucks. Fact is, even with Hamhuis out (possibly for the series), there is no player we can more easily replace outside of our 4th line wingers than Rome. Boston lost Horton, so even though this suspension is hard to justify given past rulings, it's hardly unfair to the Canucks in the larger scheme of things.

    To me the issue is consistency. It has been all through these playoffs -- there's a rulebook, but it's applied haphazardly at best. Players don't know what to expect game to game, if not period to period sometimes (the SCF has been better in this respect with more veteran and quality officials).

    Based on precedent this is a terrible call. If Mike Murphy can be taken at his word, it should have got 0 games, exactly like Chara. Different part of the ice but the infraction and consequences were very similar. If Chara had got 4 games I would have been ok with it. If Heatley's elbow in the reg. season had got 4 games, then there's some consistency. They are making a joke of themselves and they better smarten up because it's making a mockery of the league.

    Having said that, if the NHL is serious about taking this sort of hit out of the game, then that's fine with me. Give him 4 games. Give him 10. But, first of all, setting new precedents should probably be done at the beginning of a season and not in the Cup finals. And second, they sure as $%^$ better stick with the new precedent instead of conveniently forgetting it as they always seem to do. Would Chara now get 4 games? Would he get it next season? Or will it still matter who is the culprit and who is the victim? I won't be holding my breath.
     
  9. Original Beast

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    4 games, i have no problem with that.
    this is Rome's 2nd suspension this playoffs, so 4 is fair. I thought it'd be 2 minimum anyways.

    It's the right thing that hits to the head have to be removed. now let's stay consistent from now on ok NHL??

    Back to the game, this will definitely hurt the Bruins. and ironically it'll stop AV from hurting himself by playing Rome on the 1st pairing in the first place. hopefully the games stop being so chippy aswell - just too much whack and slash for my taste. and this certainly hurts Vancouver to play this way. they've got to just skate, hit and use their skill.
     
  10. Die-hard1

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    Re: Brian Burke consulted...

    Chara didn't get suspended because there's two massive conflicts of interest with the Bruins - one, Gregory Campell is on the team, and two, Jeremy Jacobs is Bettman's boss.

    They will never be treated the same because of these two items - at least one is gone, though it's the lesser of the two.

    We'll see what happens next game - hopefully the two teams can stick to playing hockey. These scrums and dust-ups after the whistle are what Boston does, it's not Vancouver's game so they need to stay out of it.
     
  11. rikster

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    Re: Brian Burke consulted...

    I've been big supporter of no hits to the head on this site since the Sundin hit on Brad May years ago...

    The problem with this hit at this time is that it does set a precident, and it is being done in game 3 of the Cup finals by the father of a player on the opposing team....Murphy officially resumes his position next season and both he and Campbell have worked together for a long time, so count me as one who is not naive to think Campbell didn't have some influence on this decision....

    Then you ask the canned, ex boss of the Nucks to give his opinion ... I'd be curious to know if a Bruin cup win helps the Leafs in any way....

    The league continues to change its mind on the fly...I get that they want to get harder on crime, but why not set precidents at the start of next season rather than the finals of this season?...

    Take care...
     
  12. Sir Rodney

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    Re: Brian Burke consulted...

    Hi Gang,

    I agree that the optics of involving Burke don't look good but when you consider the end result, I can't disagree with the end result. Burke has a history with the Canucks, granted, but he also has a history doing Campbell's job (ex job, sorry). He was a natural to turn to for advice.

    The question I want to throw out there is what does the League expect defensemen to do when an attacking player is entering his zone? Let's assume that this hit happened about 10/30 of a second earlier so that it fell below the parameters for a "late hit". On a two-on-two, one defenseman's responsibility is the attacker receiving the pass while the other's is to stop the second forward from getting to the net. In last night's game, I think it's safe to assume that Horton was going to drive for the net to either receive a centering pass or look for a rebound. In other words, he's a threat to score. Since I'm playing what if, what if Horton had kept his head up to protect himself during that play and, more importantly, to find the best access to the net. Would the League have expected Rome to do anything differently? Or, is the new expectation that the defenseman isn't allowed to make an open ice check on a player following a north/south route into the attacking zone? The difference between that scenario and what happened last night is minute. One constitutes a legitimate hockey play while the other results in an injury and a four Stanley Cup Final game suspension.

    Opinions on this are extremely polarized based primarily on Horton's injury. Could he have been injured if it hadn't been 8/30 of a second late? Of course he could. Would that have justified Rome still getting a suspension? The League's rationale was, "Two factors were considered in reaching this decision," NHL senior vice-president of Hockey Operations Mike Murphy said in a statement. "The hit by Rome was clearly beyond what is acceptable in terms of how late it was delivered after Horton had released the puck and it caused a significant injury."

    It's all well and good to talk about getting head shots out of the game. I support that as well. But as many of us have stated previously, they need to clearly establish what constitutes a head shot and not wing it based on emotion. That 8/30 of a second allowed The League to get off easy on this one. That's too fine a margin and too close to being a legitimate play for anyone to feel this issue is resolved.

    How can they possibly hope for any consistency of application when the parameters aren't clearly spelled out and understood. I heard a lot of talk last night that because the route was north/south, Rule 48 didn't apply. What did apply was an injury on the play before a massive audience which forced their hand. That's not good enough, particularly when injuries haven't proven to be a mitigating factor in the past.
     
  13. Original Beast

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    Re: Brian Burke consulted...

    well said SR.

    the line is completely blurred right now, and they have this summer to work on it.

    on Horton, as bad as i feel for him, he was out admiring his pass, and didn't keep his head up in an area where you're expected to bump into traffic. i think 99/100 times, Horton looks up and skates hard to the net, as the recipient to his pass was already ahead of him. but this just goes to show how fast and dangerous this game is. fractions of a second for both skater and hitter that could decide the outcome of a play and, in unfortunate circumstances like last night, a players health.

    i suspect next year is gonna be a playground of controversy on the suspension front. losing Campbell is the beginning of a chance to clarify these grey areas in terms of responsibility. hopefully once things become clearer, that players, coaches and the media can converge on a point of agreement, and we can move on to focusing on the games at hand. i'm tired of this hypocritical stance by all parties, ie. it's ok until it's your guy that gets smoked/suspended.
     
  14. ULF_55

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    Had he hit him square in the chest I don't think there is a suspension, but targeting the head has been in the news for quite some time.

    Fans see what they want so don't ask them for an unbiased punishment.
     
  15. Die-hard1

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    There's nothing unbiased about being a fan - I know that well, and my opinions are coloured that way.

    Most fans don't realize that though - they think their opinions are the unbiased ones.
     
  16. rikster

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    Re: Brian Burke consulted...

    OK, after reading various comments from fans and media, I'm going with the Bruins are held to a different standard because of the Jacobs and Campbell effect...

    I hadn't realized how many incidents Bruin players were involved in where supplemental discipline could have/should have been handed out, but wasn't ...

    It's not that I have a problem with Rome being suspended, its just on the heels of other incidents in these playoffs including the McGinn hit on Rome which received a 5 and a game but no suspension, I can't rationalize the decision any other way...

    One of the more interesting comments made by a media member was the thought that the Peverly slash to the back of Bieksa's leg was the most vicious hit of the series and while it was made in full view of the officials and created a very good scoring chance, it went unpenalized...

    With the news that Burkey is still consulted by league head offices, I am now also of the opinion that the questionable incidents involving head office and the Canuck organization is a residue from the Burkey firing in Vancouver....

    Head office is an old boys network which includes Burkey but which certainly doesn't include Gillis and would explain as an example how a team can openly admit it's targeting upcoming free agents without being penalized....

    Which team do you think that old boys network is silently cheering for? One is owned by Bettmans boss and has one of the leagues top executives kid playing on it or the one who is owned by a guy who was unsuccessfully sued by the soon to be owner of the Stars and who canned an old boys club member and is managed by the guy who canned the old boys members best friend?...

    The NHL has had a perception problem for some time, yet refuses to do anything about it...the final straw should have been the Chara incident and the league should have made major changes to its personal at that time but didn't....Call it the Jacobs and Campbell effect...

    The likes of Jeff can scream Canuck divers to the top of their lungs, but in reality they should reflect on how many times their team came up aces when it wasn't possible and keep their mouths closed....

    They shouldn't ever use the words precedent because if case law was applied they wouldn't have had their overtime hero in game 7 of the Tampa series in their lineup to score that series clinching goal....

    Take care...
     
  17. Connecticut

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    It seems to me that what the NHL needs is some sort of "ombudsman" type person. Someone who is not connected to the league at all -- heck, I'd be fine if it were someone European! That person would have no actual authority, but would be privy to all the decision making and would issue private and public opinions that would hold the NHL accountable. It's clear that they are unwilling or unable to hold themselves accountable.

    I love Shanahan, but having him be head disciplinarian is a complete joke. He couldn't be impartial no matter how hard he tried, it's humanly impossible to ignore your emotions and connections to people when trying to deliver an unbiased judgment. Still, it seems unlikely that there's anyone completely satisfactory out there who is both virtually unconnected to the league and also knows the game well enough to be able to run the office -- that's why I'm ok with keeping Shanahan or whoever, but bring in someone that can give them a little credibility.

    As for Boston in particular, I don't really care. Maybe they've been getting favoritism, maybe they haven't. But why leave it out there as even a somewhat plausible possibility?
     
  18. Die-hard1

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    Re: Brian Burke consulted...

    I firmly believe that Jeremy Jacobs is the one major thing wrong with the NHL - he runs Bettman and he makes no apologies for it.

    The Bruins have gotten off incredibly lightly a number of times in supplemental discipline (Horton throwing a water bottle at a fan, Chara incident are two that immediately come to mind) but they also did have the Cooke hit on Savard - that's the one thing I can think of where justice was not done for the Bruins.

    That said - don't touch a Bruin player or you're going to get a penalty/fine/suspension almost every time - just reality in this league.
     
  19. Sir Rodney

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    Re: Brian Burke consulted...

    Hi Rikster,

    I think the acid test for your theory has yet to happen. I thought Bob McKenzie put it into perspective when he commented on the length of the suspension Rome received. I had to agree with the final part of that when he said that "if" this was the new standard of consequence for north/south hits resulting in injury, he was all for it. When the next injury occurs if they don't apply the same standard, all hell is going to break out. A four game suspension in the Stanley Cup Finals should equate to about 16 games in the regular season. The trouble is, you know and I know that isn't going to happen. I will be happy to eat my words if I am proven wrong as no one wants players injured no matter what team they play for.

    The other aspect of this that wasn't even mentioned in any of the coverage of the League's ruling was the role Horton played in this by entering the attacking zone with his head down. I am not suggesting he did that intentionally but it was definitely a mitigating factor in his being injured. Are we heading for a League that wants "you can't hit me, I've got my head down"? If that's the case, you can just imagine the type of player who will take advantage of that.

    I assume you've seen Vigneault's interview on Canucks.com? He will obviously be vilified by Jeff and Mick but he didn't feel the suspension was justified at all. He called it a timing play and acknowledged that Rome was off in that regard (remember we are talking about 8/30 of a second off it being a legitimate hit). He couldn't understand how Rome could be checked into the boards in the San Jose Series, sustain an injury and there not being a suspension on the play whereas this resulted in his being removed from the Stanley Cup Finals (before Jeff and Mick jump in and re-voice the yeah but Horton was injured refrain - Rome not as seriously injured fortunately, but he was injured).

    I have a hard time buying into any conspiracy theory but I agree that the optics of all of this are pretty hard to ignore. I will go along with the stated objective of taking injuries out of the game and I look forward to their next decision.
     
  20. rikster

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    Re: Brian Burke consulted...

    Hi Sir

    I'd agree with McKenzie except for the fact that the league notified all clubs prior to the playoffs that a new standard was in place, and then promptly went about doing nothing when it was presented with the McGinn and the Ryder hits....

    They were examples of hits from the side or behind, both of which I think we can all agree are more dangerous than a north/south hit...

    Even though the league did nothing on the first two, they felt the need to issue the longest suspension in a finals in the history of the game...

    Not only does the league announce a new standard heading into the playoffs, which makes little sense, but they put a newbie in place before the finals because they didn't like the optics of Campbell and this newbie is so green that he feels the need to seek advice from a rival GM who has a history of issues with the Canucks...

    So, if you put Jacobs and Campbell and Burkey in a room, you get a history making suspension for an action that was described as legal in every way except that it was just a tiny bit late....

    No,I'm sticking to my Jacobs and Campbell theory, thank you very much...

    Take care...
     
  21. Shakes

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    The way I see it is that one of the big no no's that Rome did was that he jumped up into the hit and his feet actually left the ice. If he keeps his feet planted and he keeps his shoulder dropped he might still be suspended but perhaps not as long. To me the driving up off your feet part into someone's head has to be severly punished. Especially when it is a star player for your team and the infraction is done by a dumb dumb.
     
  22. Shakes

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    Hockey is a strange game.

    Sometimes teams can rally from a loss like that and suprise the hell out of you......Usually it comes from the entire team trying to pick up the slack of the missing player and actually finding that extra gear that did not exist......

    I think your right but I mentioned this as sometimes a rallying cry can do wonders with a lunch bucket team.
     
  23. Die-hard1

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    Again, I agree with the suspension and most of what you've said Shakes - but Rome is not a dumb dumb. No suspensions in his career, no major black marks at all - he's actually a very clean player and this is simply a play that went bad.

    All the rest I agree with - I'm not really sure what he was doing other than trying to throw a huge hit, and it was late. Those hits shouldn't happen in this game.
     
  24. Sir Rodney

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    Hi Shakes,

    I understand your sentiment but I disagree with your wording. If you freeze this video at the 1:00 mark you will see that Rome's shoulder was in contact with Horton's head but both of his feet were still on the ice. As part of his follow through, Rome did thrust his shoulder upwards and his feet definitely left the ice. To suggest that he "jumped up into the hit" or "driving up off your feet part into someone's head" suggests to me that Rome jumped to target Horton's head which I don't see as the case at all. Craig Simpson even used the phrase, "stood up on him" to describe Rome's action. In the NHL ruling, the concern was that the hit was late and that a serious injury occurred. Rome was not accused of targeting Horton's head per se.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8voTc9A7qDQ&feature=topvideos_sports
     
  25. Shakes

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    I looked at the video and his feet may not be off the ground but he clearly was in the act of jumping up into the hit whether before initial contact was made or after. Really makes no difference.

    Dumb dumb can be changed to none star player. I have no issues with this.

    In this case a none star player hit a star player for the opposing team in a manor that was considered a late hit, player was vulnerable, and he left his feet before initial contact or after driving up into the check.

    I think what you have here is a recipe for the NHL to attempt to set a small precident.
     
  26. Sir Rodney

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    Trying To Understand

    Define a small precedent. In the history of the Stanley Cup, there have been three previous suspensions. The total of those three was three games, one less than Rome got.

    The issue of whether Rome was a top line player or Horton was a fourth line scrub shouldn't factor in to this. For you to mention it suggests to me that you feel it does. I am curious as to whether you feel the reverse should also apply? Case in point, the Chara/Paccioretti incident. It had all the trappings of this one in terms of it being a late hit, not being a blind side hit and a serious injury resulted. What was different was that it was a star player doing the hitting on a lesser light. The suspensions were significantly different. Were you as satisfied with the NHL's ruling then as you are now?
     

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