8 strikes and you're out!

Discussion in 'Hockey Talk' started by Original Beast, Jun 15, 2011.

  1. Original Beast

    Original Beast
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    Let's see
    - game 6, against Chicago 2009
    - game 6, against Chicago 2010
    - games 4,5 against Chicago 2011
    - games 3,4,6, 7 against Boston

    Luongo has to go. i dont' want to see him in a Canucks jersey again.
    I feel the same way with AV - can't adapt in game. why is Tanner Glass getting almost as much ice time as Kesler and the twins in game 7? bringing and using an out of shape , one eyed Maholtra in far too many situations (his face offs have been horrible, about 25%). AV's still trying to line match in game 7 to "protect" the twins? why are nucks players still shooting low on Thomas, while every Bruin player is aiming high/bt the legs on Luongo? bad coaching. he just can't settle this team when it needs it, and can't inspire them to play with energy and drive when they need that.

    there must be some changes - let's hope Gillis has the balls to tweak a team that lost the cup by 1 game.

    Boston deserves this Cup. I hate all this dirty play and it's made for ugly ugly hockey but they've played with heart and drive. Congrats Tim Thomas - you deserve this.
     
  2. m_peroni

    m_peroni
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    I wouldn't fire AV. The guy took this team to the finals and used what he had. He tried a lot of line combos. However, if i were to give a reason to fire him, i'd have one, but i will mention it later.

    The Sedins failed this team, shockingly. I think Burrows needs to go for sure. He changed the momentum of this series in a despicable way. Kesler looked out of gas.

    In the end, no player stepped up on this superb team. Skill, guts, speed, physical strength.... good in all areas of the ice. I'm just appalled that they shrunk the way they did. They have no one to blame but themselves and fans have no one to blame but their own players of their beloved teams.

    The officiating was not excellent, it was not as consistent either. But, to put any blame for this series on the officials is the easy way out with a lame excuse.

    Something was wrong with this team. You know something must have been wrong when they won by one goal margins on home ice, and got clobbered in Boston three times. Lack of confidence? Choked? I don't know...and we will never know. But, this team blew it.

    As for firing AV....he managed to reach the finals and i wouldn't fire a coach that just got you there; HOWEVER...., i think AV really made a terrible call that could have affected this series.

    Game 3.
    In Boston.
    8-1.
    Luongo allowed all 8 goals.

    So it gets me thinking, was there an issue with that? Why on earth did AV leave his star goalie in for 8 goals? The team was getting killed, losing 4-0.... what purpose? This could have brought a disruption in belief between the players and the coach. He allowed Luongo to get ridiculous, basically. The next game in Boston Luongo allowed 4. So, nothing happened after the 8-1 horror show.

    Then a little bounce back with solid player effort with a 1-0 win at home in Game 5. Coming back to Boston, again..... 5-2.

    This was a mental loss for the Canucks and i have been saying this since the Chicago series. This team had a 3-0 series lead and nearly blew it. It took them an OT goal to seal the deal in game 7. So, they also struggled later with Nashville.

    Complete mental meltdown. This team went through it and managed to come back, but when dealing with a team that displayed more desire, more hunger, more team effort, and more trust in themselves, then they fell apart.

    So, could Game 3 have been the real series changer? Possible. And of course, the ridicule antics of Burrows were only unneeded distractions. This team totally fell apart.

    I understand fans on here were behaving as passionate fans. And i was tough, maybe too tough, and i also know i three in the towel to try and reason, but only due to an unfortunate unnecessary comment. I do apologize for being a nervy fan, but i do hope that some people recognize going over the line and rejecting reason into their posts.

    Now, hockey is over. The ice rinks are turned off. The jerseys are all put away. The sticks in bags. Locker rooms turned off. It's time to renew our topics here on McKeens. We have a draft day to look forward to. Some possible trades to make cap adjustments (Philly), or roster changes (Hawks? Nucks? Leafs?).

    Another big topic to talk about is Luongo. You, OB, want him gone. Okay, i see why you are so upset. But the guy is still fairly young. He still has star power. He has desire and passion. It's growing pains. He has more to learn, more maturing as well. He has a behemoth of a contract, which is quite hard for any team to take. What's his price tag for Gillis as well? Too much talent in return?

    Also, would Corey Schneider be ready to try and lead this team next year to the playoffs?

    I think a lot of what happen has to sink in to the team, media, and fans.

    It's a tough loss. I am disappointed in this Vancouver team. I really thought they had it in them. I love the Twins too much to see them so sad. Kessler is a true grit hockey player, and a great figure for US hockey. Can't say enough good things about Edler. I really had my bets on even a 4-0 sweep.

    Vancouver has waited a long time for this moment, but again...there is always NEXT YEAR. Pittsburgh managed to do it the year after, so can Vancouver.
     
  3. Sir Rodney

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    You Break Me Up Beast

    Thanks, I needed that. You consider firing the Coach and getting rid on a goalie with a twelve year contract (the first five of which are no trade) a tweak.

    I totally share your disappointment but there has to be a reality check when it comes to what moves are likely to happen. I doubt that either of what you are suggesting will happen. This isn't the time for finger pointing. Tim Thomas clearly out played Luongo in the series. I get that. By the same token, Vigneault was the coach and Luongo was the goalie who got us this far and we did it by beating three excellent teams in some very tough series to get to Game 7. Twenty-eight teams didn't get this far and only one got further. Once again, disappointing for sure but incompetence, hardly.

    Looking ahead there are some decisions that will have to be made so why not spend some more energy on what you think will happen with the following:

    Schneider has one more year on his contract. You are advocating his being the number one. I don't agree. I feel he will remain the backup for another year.

    On defense:
    Hamhuis, Edler, Ballard and Rome are the only ones under contract. If Gillis has a big move to make here it will be finding another team to take on Ballard's contract. Obviously he is persona non grata in Vancouver so he has to be moved or buried in the minors. That's one trade I think Gillis gets a mulligan on.

    Bieksa, Erhoff, Salo and Alberts are UFAs. If Gillis is really going to make some major changes, it will likely be here. The only one I see as a given to return is Bieksa. Salo can't be as faulted for his contribution in the playoffs but his age works against him. He will likely retire but I doubt the Canucks will use him even for a one year contract. Alberts is a meh one way or the other. He doesn't hurt them, he's big and he's relatively inexpensive so he is next most likely to return. Erhoff hasn't been a liability consistently but he also is worth a big chunk of the salary cap if the Canucks expect to be bigger on the back end.

    Forwards:
    Huge possibilities of change here on the third and fourth lines. All of these are UFAs next year: Higgins, Torres, Glass and Tambellini. These are RFAs: Hansen, Rypien, LaPierre and Bolduc. I really can't see anyone other than Hansen being a given. I don't think any of these will be on the second line if they can find a veteran free agent to play there until Raymond is healthy. Higgins was good but not great. Torres? Lapierre?

    Real decisions need to be made to make sure we don't come up short next year. Close doesn't cut it.
     
  4. Original Beast

    Original Beast
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    ahh...i'm just mad. =0)


    but i am very weary of Luongo's play now. it's not the first, second or third time.
    as for AV , i've NEVER been a fan of his, and likely never will be. his leaving Lou in for 8 goals in that game 3, i think turned the ENTIRE series around, cuz it gave previously "can't score" bruins players a HUGE boost in confidence. the Bruins are a team, that plays with emotion, and the edge started to move over to them.

    yes, we came within one game...Van's a real strong team. but we were outscored 26-7?
    our coaching staff didn't /couldn't solve the problems the team was having scoring. kept doing the same thing over and over again. it's a good mantra for the regular season, but this is the playoffs - heart, grit and timely adjustments mean everything.

    now , i'm no dummy...i'm just mad.
    our defense were too wounded. Hamhuis gone, Erhoff not the same after the shoulder injury in SJ. Edler now revealed to have 2 broken fingers. Ballard was mismanaged, else he could have been very helpful in our transition. i feel a big reason the offence dried up was because much of that comes from our defence, and they weren't healthy enuff to do it, and/or our game plan didn't advocate it (i suspect a bit of both)

    i still love the twins, but they 've got to show more and find a way to fight thru tough checkers. that will be their next step, and i trust they will. they've proven to get better and more effective each year. i'd like the second line to get more scoring and toughness. seeing Lucic, a local east vancouver boy hoist the cup here for Boston stings. he should be ours. =0)

    anyhow, still a great season. just wasn't meant to be.


    as for changes - i only advocate one - moving Louie. OR moving AV. i doubt either get's moved.
    This post was edited on 6/15 9:23 PM by Original Beast
     
  5. Original Beast

    Original Beast
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    Re: You Break Me Up Beast

    see my reply to Peroni SR.

    only to add, that i've never been a fan of AV like you are. i think this team is so stacked in talent and depth, is the main reason they got here, not because of his coaching. as for Lou - i can lose him, and you' know i've been a fan of his for years. but the evidence is there - he's mentally fragile, and just deflates this team everytime this happens. ask yourself honestly SR, have you EVER seen a goaltending performance like Louies in this series in the playoffs?? btw, Chicago let go a cup winner in Niemi. another goalie stepped up.

    tweaks need to be made. i never advocated "gutting the team" as you might think i was saying. not at all.
     
  6. rikster

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    I think we should wait till we learn what the injury status was before we condemn players...

    And as has been pointed out, Toews had 1 goal and 3 assists and was a minus player in the finals last season and Datsyuk and Zetterberg have 5 goals combined in some 20 finals games, so more often than not the teams top scorers are held in check in the Cup finals...

    As shocking as the numbers Beast posted about the meltdowns Luongo has had in the playoffs, its not just the losses, its the fact that those losses caused extra games and in those extra games players got hurt...

    The team doesn't need a Thomas type performance, it just needs stable goaltending...

    And with all due respect to Thomas, the hero of the series for me was Chara....

    The media went overboard hyping Thomas, and don't get me wrong he was solid, but Chara made life pretty easy for him....

    Congrats to the Bruins, not a fan of how they did it but in the end their penalty kill was so good that had the game been called the way it should have I doubt it would have mattered because the Bruins did such a good job of killing penalties...

    Take care...
     
  7. Original Beast

    Original Beast
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    As shocking as the numbers Beast posted about the meltdowns Luongo has had in the playoffs, its not just the losses, its the fact that those losses caused extra games and in those extra games players got hurt...
    - Rikster

    well, that's it isnt it Rikster? the coach/goalie allowing that kind of debacle lead to more problems than just that loss. Van should have gotten a split in Boston and taken them out in 5. alot has to do with the Bruins of course - they fought hard and beat us. lets hope next year, we find a way. as much as i advocate firing AV, i know it won't happen, Gillis likes him, and he's getting nominated for an award. i pray we don't wait another 17 years for another chance. this is devastating.

    as i write this, idiot yahoos are rioting/wrecking my city again. crap.
     
  8. Sir Rodney

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    Mick Has A Soft Side

    Hi Mick,

    I agree with some of what you've said and don't feel as strongly as you do on some others.

    The Game 3 humiliation seems to have generated a lot of speculation about a controversy between Vigneault and Luongo. One is that Vigneault hung Luongo out to dry for crapping the bed and the other is that Luongo basically ordered Vigneault to leave him in. I have a problem with both theories. I have reason to believe that Vigneault gave Luongo the option of coming out after the first period and that Luongo asked to stay in to try and work things out in preparation for Game 4. Why a coach would want to embarrass his goalie or vice versa makes no sense and there is nothing in the relationship between to two to suggest otherwise. In Game 4, that was a coaching decision to pull Luongo after 3 goals when it was clear the adjustments hadn't been made. If there really was a problem, why would Vigneault go back to Luongo in Game 5? In retrospect, I would have liked to see Schneider play in Game 6 to keep the positive momentum from Game 5 in reserve for Game 7. It would have been a major bonus to win on the road after the two previous losses and if Schneider had pulled off the unexpected win, so much the better. The two goalies get along great so that wouldn't have been an issue.

    Burrows/Marchand. You really see a difference?

    The officiating was consistent. The standard had zero resemblance to League play. It wasn't just the Bruins who took advantage of that. By the end, it was pond hockey. Look at that hit Higgins put on Chara tonight. That was a blind side hit with the puck no where to be seen. In my opinion, it was worse than the Rome or Boychuk hits in terms of abuse of the rules. The main difference was that Chara wasn't injured on the play. Why they even bothered dressing two refs is beyond me.

    Boston played playoff hockey so much better than the Canucks did and that's why they won. Vancouver's strength is not its physicality, it is its speed and finesse. They tried to match the Bruins' style of play as that was what was being allowed to happen and they couldn't do it. As the series wore on, it took its toll and the skill that got them to the President's Trophy had disappeared completely. I don't think they lacked confidence or choked. They simply weren't built for that kind of series.

    We both predicted a short series with a Canucks win. As it turned out, the only reason the series went as long as it did was that they caught a few breaks early before the Bruins learned how to shut them down.

    The Bruins had sixteen Canadians on their roster playing old style hockey which over matched a primarily European roster. The US Olympic team used the Canadian model rather than the Euro model and it got them the Silver Medal and almost the Gold. That's clearly the kind of hockey the NHL and North American hockey fans want to see. The jibber jabber about rule changes and the like is just public posturing. We like the bangs and crashes but we protest loudly when someone gets hurt. Kind of goes with the territory.
     
  9. Sir Rodney

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    The Split In Boston

    Hi again,

    I seem to be taking the opposite side from you on a lot of the issues. When you say Vancouver should have gotten a split in Boston and taken them out if 5, other than that was what we were hoping would happen, what did we do wrong that prevented us from happening? The Bruins out played us in Games 3 and 4 as opposed to anything we did wrong. Do you really blame those two losses on Vigneault and Luongo? I would give a heck of a lot more credit to the Bruins. They over whelmed us in those two games. We should have seen that coming after Games 1 and 2.

    As for the Vancouver idiot show, I share your disgust with the crap that is happening. The crowds were fantastic as long as the Canucks were winning. It was a great place to be. Now, the idiots have taken over. When you see the crowd shots, you've got a lot of lookie lous with camera phones wanting to take part in an event. Of course to hear them tell it, they weren't part of the problem. They were just there. Without them the real assholes wouldn't be causing the problems that the police are forced to deal with. Idiot enablers. Go home already!!! It's over.
     
  10. rikster

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    With over 100,000 disappointed fans there had to be a few idiots amongst them...

    We agree that Luongo would be better off in a less pressure environment and probably on a team that gives up a lot of shots...he plays his best when the shots against are high which is something the Nucks don't give up ...

    What I found frustrating was the Bruins ability to score quickly...Though the Nucks had lots of possession and time in the Bruins end, when the Bruins gained the Nucks zone they didn't need much time to score..

    Take care...
     
  11. Original Beast

    Original Beast
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    Re: The Split In Boston

    hey SR,

    you misunderstand me.

    i said that game 3's incidents with Lou and AV , were turning points. we all know in sports, and in life, things are sometimes changed by small events, turn a different corner, everything changes, or in game speak, it's a game of inches. suppose the bleeding stopped in game 3 after 3 goals?? we come back? or make it close, but dont' give that kind of momentum and confidence builder that an 8-1 drubbing and subsequently a 5-0 drubbing immediately after does.

    Bruins whole heartedly deserved this series. when i say vancouver "should" have split that series, i meant it as something they "had" to do. they didn't of course. and it hurt them big time, dragging the series out, Bruins got stronger, our team got weaker, both physically and mentally. you saw it here tonite in game 7 - we just weren't able to bring the physical game we had in games 1,2, and 5. there' was nothing left.

    anyhow, season's over. i 'm still very proud of this team, and again, i say congrats to the Bruins for proving everyone wrong. no one win's the cup because reffing or luck. it's earned.
    This post was edited on 6/15 11:54 PM by Original Beast
    This post was edited on 6/15 11:55 PM by Original Beast
     
  12. m_peroni

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    Re: Good post all

    You're letting it all sink in and the rage is almost gone. Good good!

    The injury factor? Ehhh.... Kevin Lowe played great hockey with broken ribs. No excuses here. I can understand if the Sedins were out, but players played and when they are on the ice then there is no excuse to play bad hockey.

    As for Luongo....as much as this guy hurt my feelings the way he left Florida, i still believe in him. Obviously the word around here is that he was/is a very cocky player and is not as mentally tough as you'd want him to be.

    But again, it's about maturity and Luongo has gained a lot of experience with the Canucks. Such experience can only make him better and why would you trade him to a team where he can raise his level up a notch and win it with that team? He is a long-term investment, i doubt he goes. He gets another shot, for sure.

    AV needs to stay. You don't fire a Cup finalist coach.

    Some tweaking needs to be done. Obviously if i were Gillis i'd choose one of Ehrhoff or Bieksa, not sign both. Keep the cap space, strengthen the team up front.

    The Sedins were a real disappointment though. Zero handling of pressure. It's a lesson learned for all of these guys, even AV.

    Keep the faith, your time will come.
     
  13. Sir Rodney

    Sir Rodney
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    I'll Grant You Part Of That

    Hi Beast,

    Not to belabor the point but there was no point in this series when the Canucks were able to generate the kind of offense necessary to overcome a three-goal deficit or to take a three-goal lead. By the time in Game 3 when the Bruins had gone up by three, it was extremely unlikely that they would have been able to win. I don't lay that all on Vigneault and Luongo. Game 4 didn't have the latitude given that happened in Game 3. That's why Vigneault kept Luongo on a short leash. I would have liked to see Schneider in Game 6 as I mentioned but that would have been conceding the game for all intents and purposes and I don't think the team would have bought in to that. Whether it was public posturing or if they truly believed it but they went to Boston "expecting" to close out the series. It didn't turn out that way and by that point the damage to Luongo's confidence had been ingrained.
     
  14. Original Beast

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    Re: I'll Grant You Part Of That

    hey SR,

    do you forget that it was a couple of bad bounces in game3 at the opening of the 2nd period that changed that game, and the series?? it was 0-0 that point, and we had a 2-0 lead in the series.

    blowouts destroys confidence, and builds others. that's my only point. Bruins "couldnt' score before that point either in the series. imagine if Thomas had one of his 4-5 goal games in Tampa with Vancouver?? fact is, Thomas completely outplayed Louie by a HUGE margin, and Julien outcoached AV. one goalie excelled, the other broke down. one coach had strong game plan, the other didn't/couldn't match. those are facts.

    you seem to advocate no changes. would an identical result next year be acceptable with the same coaching staff and goalie?

    btw, i know AV wont' be fired, and Luongo won't be traded. mostly like Erhoff and Salo are gone. Higgins, Torres not brought back. i'd like to see Torres back. Raymond might not be as serviceable next year given his injuries, and the same might be said of Samuelsson. AV loves Glass, and Rome, so i see them back, altho i don't like the amount of ice time they get. Ballard needs to be moved since AV hates him, and his confidence is absolutely destroyed. Bieksa needs to come back, as he's a great pair with Hamhuis.(our best defenseman outside of a healthy Edler). shall be an interesting summer for Gillis. we need some grittier scoring support in the 2nd line. and i hope Lapierre returns aswell.

    take care. and enjoy the summer ol' friend.
     
  15. Sir Rodney

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    Re: I'll Grant You Part Of That

    Hi Beast,

    I'm not sure where you got the impression that I was advocating no changes unless you are referring to Vigneault and Luongo. I think there has to be some significant upgrades at both forward and on defense. I wouldn't lose any sleep if Bieksa was the only one of the four free agents on defense that was brought back. Alberts is inexpensive enough to be added to that list but the flexibility created by not re-signing Salo ($3.5 m), Erhoff ($3.1 m) and somehow trading Ballard ($4.2 m) would give them a lot of wiggle room. Basically, that's half of our supposed depth on defense replaced.

    We have seven forwards under contract for next year and with Raymond qualifying for salary relief, they have a lot of flexibility up front as well. I am not going to get emotional about any of the UFAs or RFAs but management has to make sure that doesn't factor in to which ones get re-signed. The nucleus remains in place and Gillis will have the opportunity to re-structure the rest of his roster based on how they would fit in to the toughening goal that I am sure he will be following. Without naming specific names, I predict that less than half of the currently unsigned players will be back.

    The proverbial window of opportunity will start to close very shortly so Gillis has no choice but to take some risks. Simply re-icing close to the same roster and hoping for a better result would have made sense under the new NHL but in the throw back NHL we saw in the playoffs, I don't think it does. I expect we will start to become less Euro, larger and more typically Canadian in next year's edition.

    The beauty of this is that we will have an insight into his plans in just over two weeks. Eight days from now we have the Entry Draft which will give us our first indication. Between now and July 1st we should hear about any contract extensions and then the real fun begins.

    Who said there was time off from hockey?
     
  16. ULF_55

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    Re: I'll Grant You Part Of That

    "do you forget that it was a couple of bad bounces in game3 at the opening of the 2nd period that changed that game, and the series?? it was 0-0 that point, and we had a 2-0 lead in the series."

    With a couple bounces Canucks could have been out in 4. One goal scored with what about 18.5 seconds to go in the first, and then an quick overtime goal.

    Bruins and Canucks could have both been out in the first round ... in 7th. game overtimes? IIRC

    Thomas and desire.
    This post was edited on 6/16 11:47 AM by ULF_55
     
  17. Original Beast

    Original Beast
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    Re: I'll Grant You Part Of That

    Bruins and Canucks could have both been out in the first round ... in 7th.
    - ULF

    - yes, i completely agree. that's kinda of my point - a small turn changes everything. so if those little things changed in game 3 van could have (ie' it's not out of the realm of possibility), just as those small turns could've wiped Van out in round one, and we'd have been watching Chicago or SJ here in the finals instead. (and or TB/Philly) this game really is one of inches.

    Bruins battled hard for those inches, and deserved this cup. no disagreement here.
     

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