Big Changes in Philly

Discussion in 'Hockey Talk' started by Connecticut, Jun 23, 2011.

  1. Connecticut

    Connecticut 1st Round Pick

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    Jeff Carter and Mike Richards both traded today, along with their contracts that extend into the next decade. Wow!

    Carter goes to Columbus to play with Rick Nash, with Voracek and a 1st and a 3rd going the other way.

    Richards going to LA for Simmonds and Brayden Schenn (and possibly a draft pick).

    Still haven't processed these trades, but they're both blockbusters. Philly will look very different next year, even more so if they manage to sign Bryzgalov.

    Thoughts on the trades?
     
  2. Sir Rodney

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    Leafs Supposedly Involved Somehow

    Well this shouldn't come as much of a surprise. The removal of two big contracts gives the Flyers the opportunity to sign Bryzgalov which will probably be announced later today or at the Draft. Braden Schenn is going to be a nice addition but losing those big bodies up front will definitely set them back short term. Columbus got tougher with that move but losing those picks could cost them in terms of their overall development. The Dynamics in LA changed quite a bit. Adding Carter takes a ton of emphasis off Kopitar. They were close to challenging in the west and they got closer with that trade.

    Interested to see what Burke has in mind as part of the fall out from these trades.

    The first of many at one of the most interesting times of the year. I'm glad the Vegas stuff is over so Gillis can focus on the what's going to happen this coming year as opposed to celebrating the personal accomplishments of the past one.
     
  3. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    I think Holmgren just ruined this franchise. This is terrible for Philly....absolutely terrible. Either these two youngsters were total a-holes in the locker room, or Holmgren is literally crazy and pulling a Mike Milbury here. Insane.
     
  4. Sir Rodney

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    Another Luongo Like Contract

    I guess Holmgren didn't learn from the Canucks' noose. 9 years, $51 million for Bryzgalov. Do you feel better about Holmgren now? Didn't think so.
     
  5. maineblackbear

    maineblackbear 1st Team All-Star

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    Dont Know About The Validity Of This Peroni, But...

    What I have heard is that neither one of the could stand Laviolette. Thats the whispering over here. Its been said that Laviolette had issues with not just these 2, but others...due to his strong personality. He is a pretty demanding guy.

    Later
     
  6. maineblackbear

    maineblackbear 1st Team All-Star

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    Darren Dreger and Kevin Paul DuPont Reported...

    They reported that Toronto could have had Carter, but was not willing to include Kulemin in the deal.

    It reportedly would have been Carter (and possibly a mid level prospect) for Kadri and Kulemin.

    Later
     
  7. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    Re: Darren Dreger and Kevin Paul DuPont Reported...

    Who is they?

    I doubt Burke would have said no to that trade.

    I don't care if the two players had issues with the coach. Your two top players gone for a 2nd line center who is still iffy (Voracek) a third liner in Simmonds, a solid, but unproven, prospect in Schenn, and the 8th overall would fetch a good prospect, but not great.

    I wonder if they plan to move up, using the 8th, trading maybe Versteeg, for the first overall, or second.

    Holmgren just pulled a couple of milburys here, i think. Awful.
     
  8. Connecticut

    Connecticut 1st Round Pick

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    Re: Dont Know About The Validity Of This Peroni, But...

    Seems easier to fire Laviolette, no?
     
  9. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Re: Please leave the West alone...

    For heavens sake, what's with the studs moving out West as if the West needed to get any tougher...

    I had thought that with all of the young studs being out East it would only be a matter of time before the pendulum shifted to the East, but with Carter and Richards moving west, that notion has been put on hold for a few more years...

    Crazy contract to Bryzgalov, maybe now the media attention will move away from Luongo and focus on him and his contract...

    Take care...
     
  10. Connecticut

    Connecticut 1st Round Pick

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    Re: Darren Dreger and Kevin Paul DuPont Reported...

    Milbury set a pretty high bar, tough to pull that off.

    I think these are at worst a notch below -- Milbury took guys who were not yet great but would go on to be, and dumped them for scrubs. Chara, Luongo, Bertuzzi, etc., out -- Kvasha, Parrish, Yashin, etc., in.

    Holmgren is not trading away unknown quantities -- we know what Richards and Carter bring to the table and they may not have peaked, but they're not likely to surprise anyone. The players in are also not scrubs, but young guys with potential, Voracek, Simmonds, Schenn.

    It could be a big mistake by Holmgren, but then you have deals where the big star never really regains their peak form and/or the young gun blossoms beyond expectations. The Canucks alone traded Neely for Pederson in this sort of scenario, as well as Peca for Moginly.

    If you're the Flyers you really need to have your fingers crossed, but all is far from lost. At the same time, for a team just a year removed from the SCF and eliminated this year by the eventual champ and without Pronger, you'd think they wouldn't take such a drastic and risky route.
     
  11. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    Re: Please leave the West alone...

    Don't worry about Carter and Columbus. They have ways to go and he won't make a HUGE difference. He will make them better, but not playoff worthy just yet.

    LA is friggin scary now. Good luck.

    Bryzgalov doesn't get bothered by media attention.
     
  12. Die-hard1

    Die-hard1 6th Round Pick

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    Re: Darren Dreger and Kevin Paul DuPont Reported...

    The first thing I thought about too was damn, as if the west needed more players. The cakewalk that is the eastern conference is getting even easier.

    If I'm Philly I like the Carter trade, he's overpaid and injury prone, and they got good value in Voracek, the 8th overall and a 3rd.

    If I'm Philly I don't like the Richards trade - he's exactly what you want in a captain, paid well for what he does (much, much better defensively than Carter) and still young.

    I'm not really sure what Philly is doing here - they had old d-men and young forwards, and now they have even younger forwards with the same old d-men. I like Schenn for the future, but he's unproven, and I like Simmonds but he's a 3rd liner. Looks like Philly is going to go with Giroux and Schenn as their two centers - not exactly great depth and very, very young.
     
  13. maineblackbear

    maineblackbear 1st Team All-Star

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    I Love The Discrediting of the East

    11 of the last 20 Cup champions have come from the East...and 5 of the last 8.

    As many high level athletes will tell you...you get better and more prepared for the postseason by playing against the best.

    That said, why is it that other than the Red Wings, most of the rest of the West cannot handle Finals level hockey?

    The East is so discredited its comical. A differing view point could easily be argued that the East has mentally and physically tougher players than the West, and therefore are better suited to a long grind.

    Another arguement can also be made that the talent in the east is not as bad as some make it out to be.

    The East can lay claim that 4 of the best forwards in the NHL reside in that conference. The East can possibly lay claim to the 2 best goalies in the NHL. It can lay claim to 1 of the 2 best d men in the NHL.

    Sure, overall the west has a better group of d men, but ultimately when the ultimate prize is concerned, the East is absolutely NOT the least!

    Later
     
  14. Die-hard1

    Die-hard1 6th Round Pick

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    Re: I Love The Discrediting of the East

    The west, again, won over 50 games more than the east against the other conference this year.

    Maybe, just maybe - the east wins the cup because the western teams are exhausted after running the gauntlet that is the west? I know it's impossible to see being a Boston fan, but that's the #1 reason the Bruins won this year.
     
  15. Sir Rodney

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    Re: I Love The Discrediting of the East

    I am sure travel plays a roll in that as well. Back in the six team league days teams moved between venues by train. I fully recognize that these players aren't flying coach but the old body clocks have to be taking a shit kicking. Can you imagine the existence of sleep coaches and dieticians back then just to help overcome that?

    I wouldn't make a blanket statement like D-H did. There are no cakewalks in the league in either conference. Out here we have Tim Hortons. Out there you have cream puffs. ;-)
     
  16. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    Re: I Love The Discrediting of the East

    This idea that the West beats itself up and then loses to the East is nonsense. Every time the East wins that silly assertion is made, but when the West wins then it's just that it was a better conference.

    These are athletes for crying out loud. They rode buses for miles since they were teenagers, for hours. So enough with the mileage excuse as well.
     
  17. maineblackbear

    maineblackbear 1st Team All-Star

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    Thats What I Figured

    I figured that as well DieHard1.

    Because certainly none of the following had ANYTHING to do with the Bruins win:

    1. Far better goaltending
    2. Far better physical presence
    3. Bostons 3rd and 4th lines outplayed Vancouvers
    4. Bostons defense shut down the vaunted Seguin line
    5. Claude Julien outcoaching Alain Vigneault

    Because after all....the Canucks were SO beat up that they just couldnt win.

    Later
     
  18. Shakes

    Shakes MVP

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    Toronto targeted Richards.

    apparently Burke had some interesting discussions and was in the hunt for Richards as his prime target and not Carter. I would suggest he was looking or offering for either one.

    To bad would have loved him. Richards that is....Carter maybe

    Anyways reports out of TO are that Kulemin + Kadri and something else was requested from Toronto and Burke did not like parting with Kulemin.

    OH well not far removed from what you stated just Richards was mentioned.
     
  19. Die-hard1

    Die-hard1 6th Round Pick

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    Re: Thats What I Figured

    Again, typical Boston fan putting words in my mouth - I said injuries were the #1 reason, not the only reason. If you're going to argue with me don't put words in my mouth.

    Like I said - I'm done talking Boston - now stop trying to bring it back there. Congrats on your cup win, now leave it alone.
     
  20. Shakes

    Shakes MVP

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    Re: Darren Dreger and Kevin Paul DuPont Reported...

    Boston was taken to game 7 by two different teams in the east.

    TB and Montreal and let we forget that PIttsburg was banged up pretty bad with injuries to Malkin and Crosby both.

    There is a lot of differences in the style of hockey played in the east vs. the west but neither.....repeat neither is a cakewalk.

    I think that the EAST has some bottom feeder teams where as the West has more balance top to bottom if you only look at the bottom teams I would agree with you. The top 2 teams in the east are pretty much on even par with the top 2 teams in the West. I think we had a similar arguement back 2 years ago except this time we were discussing which team was better Boston or Vancouver. I also think that any of the top 4 teams in the West could win a cup and equally so could the easts top 4 teams.

    I honestly think that the West is a tougher and rougher division. More physical style of hockey with more travel. However the Leafs for example play more back to back games then most other teams because of hockey night in Canada but the Leafs are bottom feeders so they really should not be counted on for anything.

    Oh well
     
  21. Shakes

    Shakes MVP

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    Re: Please leave the West alone...

    what pendulum are you refering to shifting?

    I honestly think that the top 4 teams from the east are on an even par with the top 4 teams from the West.

    The only difference is that the bottom 4 teams in the east are probably worse then the bottom 4 teams in the West.

    As far as the playoff's go however the top 8 teams from the east are about equal to the top 8 teams from the West.

    Just my thoughts
     
  22. maineblackbear

    maineblackbear 1st Team All-Star

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    Re: Thats What I Figured

    Thats not what you said.

    In your post just before mine in this very thread, you clearly stated that Vancouver being "exhuasted" after running the Western gauntlet was the #1 reason they lost.

    You never put the word injuries in that post.

    But again....exhaustion. Injuries. Its all discrediting the team that dominated 4 games and played Vancouver essentially even in 3 others. Its all implying that Vancouver simply had no chance because of things other than the Bruins themselves.

    Why is it so hard to admit that the better team won the Cup? Why come up with excuses as to why they lost to the Bruins?

    Later
     
  23. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Facts...

    I have not heard anybody in the media question the argument that the West is the stronger side, and have heard from players who admit they didn't realize how different and tough this side was as compared to the East...

    In the SCF's, the Bruins spent 5000 less miles traveling to get there than the Canucks did which is one of the big disadvantages teams in the West are faced with....

    Would your rather the Bruins had gone thru Chicago, Nashville, and then San Jose to reach the finals or Montreal, Philly and Tampa?...

    The Bruins, by nature of the style they play would have likely been very beat up by the time they had found themselves in the SCF's...Would have been some real wars against the Hawks and Sharks in paticular as compared to the non physical series they played against those Eastern teams....

    Maybe one day we go to a cross over so that number 1 on the West plays number 8 on the East, I know I wish the Nucks had gone up against the Rangers in round 1 vs the Hawks...

    Take care....
     
  24. Die-hard1

    Die-hard1 6th Round Pick

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    Re: Thats What I Figured

    How many times do I have to give credit to Boston for winning? How many times do I have to say they were the better team? How many times do I have to congratulate you?

    Injuries, exhaustion - same thing. The Nucks weren't near 100% when they played the Bruins, and IMHO that's what cost them the cup. I could be wrong and I know you disagree, as in your mind every Boston team is better than the 70's Habs, but that's my opinion. These aren't excuses, this is me, as a Canuck fan, trying to figure out what they need to do differently in the future to avoid this and win it all.

    I find it funny - Jay Mohr even made a joke about how Boston idolizes players when they are there, and they turn into bums when they leave - yet Boston fans still don't see it.

    Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to someone with no self esteem, I keep having to repeat myself - JEFF, FOR THE 5TH TIME - THE BETTER TEAM WON!!!! GET IT? Do you really care why you won, or that you just won? Does it even matter to you? Your team won the friggin cup!
    This post was edited on 6/24 12:26 PM by Die-hard1
    This post was edited on 6/24 12:37 PM by Die-hard1
     
  25. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Re: Please leave the West alone...

    I'll answer with the arugment I asked Jeff...

    To get to the SCF's, which do you consider the easier draw?

    Chicago
    Nashville
    San Jose

    or

    Montreal
    Philly
    Tampa

    I don't think any of the 3 teams Boston beat would be considered as favorites against any of the 3 Vancouver beat, and then you factor in style of play and travel ...

    Take care...
     
  26. Shakes

    Shakes MVP

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    Re: Please leave the West alone...

    I would agree Boston had the easier draw. To answer your question. Overall I agree..

    Let us not forget that

    Philly was less Pronger
    Pittsburg was less Crosby and Malkin


    I think injuries to Pittsburg this year in addition to Pronger's injury changed the dynamic in the east. If Chicago was battered up as bad as Pittsburg was it would be wash.


    Now your turn to answer my question:

    Why did Boston have an easier time with Vancouver then they did with both Tampa and Montreal?
     
  27. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Re: Please leave the West alone...

    I don't think Vancouver could have beat any of Chicago, Nashville or San Jose in the finals considering the shape they were in...

    It is such a physical war in the West and the Nucks played extra games they shouldn't have in getting to the finals...

    if you think back to the Ducks and the Hawks and their Cup wins, they played just 21 and 22 games ....

    The loss of Hamhuis was the one that really hurt...Had the Bruins lost their number 1 dman would they have been able to win in 7?...

    As far as travel, only 7 teams traveled fewer miles in the regular season than the Bruins did while only 5 teams traveled more than the Canucks did...

    Take care...
     
  28. Shakes

    Shakes MVP

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    Re: Please leave the West alone...

    Big difference between Chara and Hamhuis but your point is spot on.

    FYI I do not think Boston could have beaten Tampa or Montreal without Horton.


    Unfortunately injuries are part of the playoff's and I can guarantee you that Boston sure as heck was banged up also. It was not like they played any less games then Vancouver did in the playoff's. In fact Vancouver had a much longer resting period to start the series then Boston did they at had some extra time to heal.

    Without knowing the facts (just a hunch) Im going to suggest that the Original Six teams tend to have to play more back to back games then Non Original Six teams. Back to back games are killers just as much as long travel is.
     
  29. Shakes

    Shakes MVP

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    Also as an add on.

    IN your response to me you did not mention the physical side of playing against Chi, SJ and Nash in your response to Jeff you did. Im assuming in your response to me you were making the same references about physical play and I did not get it until I read your response to Jeff.

    I think that it is fair to say that physically Boston had some less grinding teams to play against. But those less physical teams gave Boston a hard time.
     
  30. Shakes

    Shakes MVP

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    Re: Thats What I Figured

    I feel your pain.

    I will simply say that both Boston and Vancouver were pretty banged up by the cup finals Nobody makes it to the finals without being banged up. Especially now a days when Cup Finalists like Vancouver and Boston can be taken to game 7 in the first round. I wonder what Montreal and Chicago fans are saying to the themselves right now in regards to what they need or are lacking in order to win a cup? The answer for the most part is the same one that can be applied to Vancouver.

    What does Vancouver need in order to win the cup?

    A little bit more breaks
    Be healthy
    NOT A HELL OF A LOT else. Maybe better goaltending maybe a extra Canadian or two more?? Maybe the exact same team could win next year with health?
     
  31. Sir Rodney

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    Could Be A Lot Tougher In The West

    Hi Shakes,

    The road through the west has gotten significantly tougher and we've only started the re-stocking period. Chicago will be better without Campbell's albatross contract preventing them from making the moves they want. That's definitely a case of improvement through subtraction. Campbell was a good offensive defenseman but it wasn't his play that gave the Canucks so much trouble. Columbus could very well be a playoff contender with the addition of a big centre in Carter to play with Nash. LA is significantly better by gaining far more than they lost short term. They were so close last year. When you start factoring them in to the top 8 in the west, the question becomes who will drop out to make way for them. I haven't seen any of these teams taking a step backwards.

    With the Canucks, their short term objective is to get as many of their free agents signed as possible. This brings up the issue of Erhoff. If I am prepared to make the argument that Campbell's loss doesn't hurt the Hawks, how could I not argue the same thing for Erhoff? His offensive skills were a definite asset during League play but we have to assume that next year's playoffs will be more of what we had this year. I really see his re-signing as the least important of the four UFA defensemen (Lord I never thought I'd say that with Alberts in the mix). If they are going to make changes to get grittier at forward, then I could see the money that Erhoff would command going to someone with more of a dark side. Simply icing the same roster, even healthy may not be enough. I am optimistic that Gillis recognizes this as well.

    The west has started to re-arm itself. Just re-loading isn't going to be enough. Thanks for your vote of confidence in any case. That offer of a trade for your first pick still stands.
    -----------------------------
    On their way to get married, a young Catholic couple was involved in a fatal car accident. The couple found themselves sitting outside the Pearly Gates waiting for St. Peter to process them into Heaven.

    While waiting they began to wonder; could they possibly still get married in Heaven?

    When St. Peter arrived they asked him if they could.

    St. Peter said, "I don't know. This is the first time anyone has asked. Let Me go find out” and he left.

    The couple sat and waited for an answer… for a couple of months.

    While they waited, they discussed the pros and cons. If they were allowed to get married in Heaven, should they, what with the eternal aspect of it all? "What if it doesn't work? Are we stuck in Heaven together forever?” (That sounds like the type of question some of these long term contracts would generate.)

    Another month passed. St. Peter finally returned, looking somewhat bedraggled. "Yes," he informed the couple, "You can get married in Heaven." "Great!" said the couple. "But we were just wondering; what if things don't work out? Could we also get a divorce in Heaven?"

    St. Peter, red-faced with anger, slammed his clipboard on the ground.

    "What's wrong?" asked the frightened couple.

    "OH, COME ON!" St. Peter shouted. "It took me 3 months to find a priest up here! Do you have ANY idea how long it'll take to find a lawyer?"

    ------------------

    Thank goodness they weren't looking for an NHL official with integrity. St. Peter would still be looking.
     
  32. maineblackbear

    maineblackbear 1st Team All-Star

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    Hmmm...Non-Physical

    Bostons series against Philly was VERY physical, as they always are.

    The Boston Montreal series was very physical, as is every Boston-Montreal series.

    The only East series that wasnt very physical was the TB series.

    Later
     
  33. Die-hard1

    Die-hard1 6th Round Pick

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    Re: Thats What I Figured

    Chiarelli even came out after the finals were over and said they had one or two guys who were banged up - the rest of the team was remarkably healthy. If the GM is saying it then I believe it, Boston was extremely lucky in that regard and that's one thing you really need to win.

    IMHO, Boston won in large part because they were the healthier team. Vancouver has had health problems in the last few playoffs so they need to fix that this year - hopefully getting more durable players is one way to do that.
     
  34. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    Re: Thats What I Figured

    If the player can play on the ice, there is no excuse in making bad plays. Vancouver's total blow outs in Boston were not due to injuries, at all.
     
  35. Die-hard1

    Die-hard1 6th Round Pick

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    Re: Thats What I Figured

    I agree to a point, but if a player can't play at his normal level then it definitely affects the team. Kesler for example was playing at half speed - he could barely skate - and we all know that he's not going to stop trying as long as there's breath in his body.

    That said - I am of the mindset that if you can't play at or near your potential, get off the damn ice as there are other players who can take your spot and probably be better. Edler (broken fingers), Ehrhoff (separated shoulder), Higgins (broken foot), Kesler (torn groin and hip tendon) - all should have either picked up their play or let somebody else play.

    No doubt Jeff will pipe up out of nowhere again and say I'm making excuses but I couldn't care less what he thinks - I just want the Canucks to figure out why they are always beat to hell in the playoffs. There's no excuses for losing the cup finals - if you're on the ice then you play as hard as you can. During the Boston blowouts I have no idea what happened - all I can say is the Canucks had it taken to them 4 of 7 games for whatever reason, and they'd better not let it happen again.
    This post was edited on 6/29 1:09 PM by Die-hard1
     
  36. maineblackbear

    maineblackbear 1st Team All-Star

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    Nope..Not Going To Say Your Making Excuses

    What I WILL say is this...

    Nathan Horton suffered a shoulder separation in game 2 of the Montreal series in round 1. didnt tell anyone about it until he took a hard hit in game 7 against TB. He went on to put up almost a point per game until his concussion.

    Patrice Bergeron suffered a concussion against Philly in the 2nd rd. (game 2 maybe?). He was arugably their 2nd or 3rd best player behind Thomas and Krejci.

    Milan Lucic had his middle, pointer and index fingers all broken on his left (shooting) hand. 30 goal reg season...5 goal postseason. And this from a guy who 15 goals and 32 points in 55 playoff games. Those finger breaks killed his playoff.

    Zdeno Chara got a virus that caused him to lose 20 pounds in 2 days, and miss a game against Montreal in the first rd, game 3. He never gained that weight back...no time to do so. Anyone who watchesd the Bruins will tell you that he was absolutely NOT the same Chara at all in the postseason, that we saw over the last 2 regular seasons. He was exhausted midway through period 2 in just about every game. He is the epitome of the well conditioned athlete....races in bike marathons and wrestles against Olympic wrestlers in the off-season, as his training program. He was a pale shade of himself.

    Tim Thomas played every postseason game. He has NEVER played that many games in a row before. The plan was to play Tuuka Rask 3 or 4 times in the postseason to give Thomas a break. That didnt happen, however, because Rask has a knee injury that he will have surgery on next week.

    Andrew Ference has played his entire career with severe groin injuries and the playoff grind onlymakes it worse for him.

    The Bruins had their significant health issues as well. As Shakes said, nobody gets to the finals without being severely beaten up. And the Bruins hard-hitting physical game is a double-edged sword for them. Every time they are hitting someone, their own bodies are involved in the same collision. That style of play takes one hell of a toll on the body.

    Later
     
  37. Die-hard1

    Die-hard1 6th Round Pick

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    Re: Nope..Not Going To Say Your Making Excuses

    Sorry Jeff - I'll take the word of Boston's GM over yours - he said 1 or 2 injuries is all they had, and they were remarkably healthy and lucky to be so.

    Again, think what you want - but those words came out of Chiarelli's mouth.
     
  38. maineblackbear

    maineblackbear 1st Team All-Star

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    Re: Nope..Not Going To Say Your Making Excuses

    OK.

    You can take his word. But I'll also consider the words that came out of Julien and his players mouths.

    Later
     

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