Canucks First Moves - The Trade With Florida

Discussion in 'Hockey Talk' started by Sir Rodney, Oct 22, 2011.

  1. Sir Rodney

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    Hi gang,

    It makes you wonder whether Gillis had compromising pictures of Talon with a Manatee or something. On the surface this trade appears very lop sided in favor of the Canucks. Sturm had basically worked his way onto the bench in recent games and Samuelsson seemed to have slowed through a slow recovery process. In both cases, the Canucks are giving up on two older players for one potentially big signing for the left wing on the second line, additional depth at centre, most likely in Chicago and our third round draft pick we gave up to acquire Higgins.

    Our illustrious forecaster, Eklund, had indicated quite a while ago that the Canucks were interested in Booth but Reinprecht's name was never part of the equation. Assuming he isn't poised to beat out any of the other centers, Reinprecht's salary is pretty big for an AHL player so the other rumors of his being flipped make sense.

    Mick, I would really be interested in your perspective on Booth. Is he the answer for the Kesler line? He certainly hasn't lit it up so far this season but it's way too early to base an opinion on this year.

    On an unrelated matter, gotta love the ethic and performance of the Canucks' Fourth Line. When you see how much ice time they've been awarded and how often they spend their shift in the offensive zone, that is a major bonus.

    It's a toss up for me as to who the most improved Canuck defenseman is. Ballard or Alberts. The defender who is struggling the most is Bieksa. He is getting caught out of position far too often by trying to play more offense than he can handle and still meet his defensive obligations.

    A big trade and a win. Booyah!!!!
     
  2. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    My heart hates it, but my mind leans more towards agreeing with it.

    On paper, it is absolutely lopsided, but obviously it goes deeper than that.

    Booth is a wonderful guy. Hard worker. Funny. And he loved Florida. I mean, sometimes he would say things that you wouldn't expect a player in the Panthers to say. A few years ago they asked the players which was their favorite stadium to play in. Some said Toronto, i remember Dominic Moore saying Montreal, another said the Caps' stadium. Booth was the only who said "The Bank Atlantic Center. How's that for an answer?"

    I think you are going to REALLY like him because he still is a good player and you'll like his character. He is a smart guy too. He finished a good degree in Michigan. I read once that his trainer in college had to keep him on a specific work out and good diet because if David could have been nearly 300 pounds. And no, not fat or anything like that. I mean 300 pounds of muscle and massive strength.

    The unfortunate part about Booth is that he's never been the same since the hit by Mike Richards. The past two seasons he has reminded me of a stronger Radek Dvorak, who was also never the same after that severe leg injury.

    I got to see Booth score goals by challenging the defense. The hockey media never said anything about this, but Booth was an amazing player in one on one situations. He would go full speed ahead, with strength, and either he beat the d-man, or he drew a penalty, or he scored. It was AMAZING to watch. But ever since that hit, he has been reluctant to crash the net. I think he failed nearly all of his one on one attempts last season. And he's been a concern on the back check. I thought last season was just a bad year in regards to plus/minus, but this season he hasn't exactly helped on the back check.

    So it comes down to either entering a new scenery and playing with a much more talented team, or he just is not the same anymore, will never be the same, and will be a good second line winger scoring 20....25 goals a year, but nothing too unique either. Since i loved watching him play all this time, i hope he regains his form and kicks ass in Vancouver. He is a good man and deserves a comeback year.

    For the Panthers, maybe they gave up on him too quickly, but maybe they know what i fear as well. Booth is not the same anymore. For the Panthers, this trade makes sense because they dump $6M dollars and Reinprecht could not crack the line-up. They get rid of a long-term contract that pays $4.5M in each of the three seasons, and $4.75M on the final season. It does not make sense for a small market team to pay that kind of contract to a player who just is not working.

    Also, Kris Versteeg stole Booth's role as well.

    So, Florida now gets two veteran players that can help a little bit, certainly not do worse as Booth has, but will also be UFA players and Florida saves money for the free agent market, as they did last season.

    In conclusion, it hurts....but the reasoning behind it for the Panthers makes sense.

    Good luck David :(

    Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooth

    (Please chant that way when he skates with the puck!!!! That's what fans down here did)

    Also, i forgot to mention. Booth's NTC kicks in on July 2012. I think Tallon wanted to avoid that.
    This post was edited on 10/22 10:56 PM by m_peroni
     
  3. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Nice write up m_peroni

    I found it a bit of an eye raiser to hear Gillis advise that they have had Booth on their radar for 6 months and admit that he ran into him this summer and had a chat about his health...

    As you have likely read, Vancouver intends to play him on the second line with Kesler and those two have played together before...

    Where does that leave Hodgson?, I'm assuming the second line will now be Kesler, Booth and Higgins and Hodgson drops to the third line and centres it with Maholtra and Hansen on the wings....

    As was pointed out during the broadcast yesterday, Hodgson has been one of the Canucks better players this year but his play has tailed off a bit since being moved to wing, this will allow him to go back to his natural centre position....

    Speaking of Kesler, would somebody please tell him to quit being such a puck hog and enough with the solo attempts around 3 or 4 of the opposition....

    Take care....
     
  4. Die-hard

    Die-hard MVP

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    Hey guys,

    I'm going to reserve judgement on this trade for now - simply because I'm not sure which Booth will show up. I like his speed, good size and his effort, but it remains to be seen how he and Kesler will gel. He's also got a big financial hit - I'm not worried about the money because the Canucks are absolutely rolling in it, but it could leave less flexibility for the upcoming off-season. That said, it improves the Nucks right now which is what is needed.

    Sturm either didn't fit into the system or he's done, it's too early to say which. Either way he didn't work in Van, and kudos to Gillis and AV for determining that right away.

    Sammy I really liked a couple of years ago, he's a very underrated player who takes a lot of flak for the way he plays. He's as inconsistent as it gets, but sure can get hot at times. He's driven when something pisses him off, so if he's pissed by this trade then it's really good for Florida. I will miss his clutch play but he's been bad to awful for the last season and a bit - I hope for his sake that he's not done.

    The 3rd allows the Nucks to offersheet somebody this off-season as they re-acquired their own pick. That's a good option to have. Reinprecht will almost surely not play a game for the big club given their forward depth, so I'm not including him in the analysis.

    To me, this looks like a salary dump by Florida, who gain more flexibility for next year. I do find it odd that they added a few really questionable contracts in free agency then trade to get rid of one - it doesn't make sense. Hopefully Tallon has a plan.

    I'm very hopeful that Booth plays well with Kes - the Nucks are a ridiculously fast team, especially adding Booth and when Raymond comes back. They've got a ton of options for mixing the 2nd and 3rd line forwards, so we'll see what AV decides to do. Personally I think it will end up as Booth and Hodgson on Kesler's wings, unless they decide to move Manny to LW and play Hodgson as the 3rd line center, as Rikster says. Given their improved play of late I expect them to be in the mix of contenders for the cup once again, and this trade makes them better - it remains to be seen just how much better.
     
  5. Original Beast

    Original Beast 2nd Team All-Star

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    good day folks!

    Pretty unbelievable huh? a young 26 year old, physical speedster for basically 2 thirty' somethings past their prime? AND we got a 3rd rounder!

    but let me say this - thank you Samuelson for being a great teammate on this team, bringing experience, professionalism, and clutch scoring. it's a shame his body is starting to show signs of slowing down. good luck with the MUCH nicer weather in Florida even though there'll be no playoffs. (but I do suspect he'll be traded during the deadline for picks)

    Marco Sturm - gosh he was hardly here. didn't know why he was traded here in the first place, but Gillis got himself out of it in a hurry. kudos mr. GM

    As for Booth - i love his speed, work ethic and potential. for those who think he can't improve, dont' be too sure of yourself. he's young, hasn't lost a step and is less likely to get clocked for another concussion like the Richards hit. that "hit" is exhibit A interms of what NOT to do - blindside head shot. people have also got to remember, everyone was talking about this kid before the injury, not just Panther fans.

    Speaking of improvement SR, you mentioned Ballard and Alberts - i agree. Ballard looks far more comfortable, and he's more agressive, leading hits on the canucks on several nights, and he very well may be the fastest skater on the blueline. nice to see AV give him a second chance. but my favorite guy this year has got to be Sami Salo (Lapierre is a close 2nd), and it couldnt' make me happier to see him rifling shots at the net while still providing near perfect defensive coverage. He DESERVES to have a great HEALTHY season.

    it's gonna be a fun season guys. i didn't think it would be after last year's high and ultimate let down. but Gillis has done it again, giving us a chance to compete for the cup. i mean, who cares about a sloppy October - i'll take that every year if it means we always play in June. =0)
    This post was edited on 10/23 8:09 AM by Original Beast
    This post was edited on 10/23 8:12 AM by Original Beast
     
  6. Original Beast

    Original Beast 2nd Team All-Star

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    hey Rikster!

    your comment on Kesler made me laugh! yet how true! and i love kesler. i guess he's gotten so used to being a one man crew he' forgets he has linemates!

    i suspect your concerns about Hodgson are valid. but i trust mgmt will be patient with him. truth be told, Maholtra, aside from tearing up the face off circle, hasnt' played very well, but it's too hard to criticize a player of his character especially given what's happened to him. cody might serve well on that 3rd line with Manny and Hansen (who hasn't been too good himself).

    btw, despite rumors, i think Gillis is done after this trade. we dont' need Kyle Turris. unless Hodgson and Schneider are packaged for another monster player, i see this team unchanged till the deadline for the odd tweak. Octobers almost over, and we'll go on our streak soon.
     
  7. Sir Rodney

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    Thanks for the feedback Mick. It is much appreciated. I think your assessment provides some reason for optimism with Booth's impact on the Canucks' second line. So much has been made of the two concussions and I would be more concerned about them if they had happened last year. Obviously there are some concerns or Talon would have continued with him despite the salary issues. My hope is that he will face far more pressure to perform at both ends of the rink by his line mates and team mates. When he experiences the ethic of both Kesler and Higgins working their asses off, it won't take long for him to figure out what the expectations are. He is joining a very goal oriented team with a coach who rewards effort with ice time. His contract size won't guarantee him anything but his expectations will be huge. He is being placed into a win/win situation by joining a line with so much potential. If he's got anything left, it should come to the front quite quickly.

    Regarding Booth's linemates, I don't see Hodgson staying on that line at all. Through hard work, Higgins has become virtually impossible to move. Yesterday when Vigneault shortened his bench in the third period, Hodgson got some pine time. I could see Hodgson on a third line with Malhotra and Hansen or Raymond but even there he has to learn how to be more responsible in his own end. Eventually the Canucks are going to have to make a decision on Hansen, Raymond or Hodgson as they will have a surplus of forwards with similar skill sets.
     
  8. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Hey Beast, welcome back...

    I'm thinking that when Pinizzotto comes back, either him or Weise moves to the third line with Hodgson and Hanson which makes Maholtra the odd man out...

    Maholtra is known for his ability to win face offs, but over the past 3 games Hodgson has been better and has been over 60% in each of those games including 100% against Minny last night...

    I could see Maholtra rotating in and out of the lineup depending on injuries and to rest a third or fourth liner from time to time...

    When you think of it, the team this year has so much more grit in its 3rd and 4th lines over last season with Lapierre in the middle between Volpatti and Pinzzotto or Weiss on the 4th and the above mentioned 3rd line...

    The team now has an elite first line and a speed 2nd line that many teams would covet for their first line....

    Take care...
     
  9. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    We don't know what Tallon knows. He did come out saying that it was a move based on performance. And i must say the last two games, excluding the good effort win versus the Isle's last night (without Booth), the forwards looked too laid back and Booth was floating around even when the lines were shuffled and Tim Kennedy was doing all the work in the corners on the back check.

    It seemed like Booth was waiting for an opportunity, not creating an opportunity. I mean, if Versteeg is kinda stealing your show and he has been the best player thus far, he should have stepped up his game and make a case for Dineen to reunite him with Weiss. Unfortunately he never did.

    The fear is that this trade was done too soon for the Panthers. Maybe a benching, a healthy scratch could have done something, but those usually don't work and sometimes can further lower the value.

    It's still a weird feeling, but if the Panthers played well thus far with Booth not doing anything, and without Booth last night, then maybe such a trade wasn't that bad of an idea. Sturm replaces Kearns, and Samuelsson replaces Booth.

    I think Tallon wants to use Booth's type of contract on a free agent. Or, he saw the opportunity to trade him for something to help the team right now and give the opportunity to a prospect next season.

    Santorelli should be back in two weeks or so as well.

    Fleischmann-Weiss-Versteeg
    Kopecky-Santorelli-Samuelsson
    Bergenheim-Goc-Upshall
    Sturm-Matthias-Bradley

    Again....weird without Booth, but it's an NHL team nonetheless.
     
  10. Original Beast

    Original Beast 2nd Team All-Star

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    hey Rikster,

    good to be back although i'll be off and on the next little while as i head overseas for a bit.

    i find it interesting that you think Maholtra will be the odd man out. i don't think it'll happen because of the trust AV has in Manny. i mean, he put the guy in the finals when he CLEARLY wasn't ready and it hurt the team. i think he'll give him the whole season to work himself back into shape, and all the things i hear about Maholtra give me indications his work ethic is not an issue. centre depth is a great thing. (remember the old days of having NONE?? =0)

    btw, i like what Weiss has shown - fairly smart, fairly dependable, sticks up for his mates - he has to be pretty happy to be here. this team is far "tougher" than last year already.

    As for that second line - if Booth can get over any concussion concerns that he "may" have (as Peroni suggested), him and Kesler, and whoever else ends up there, might make it a very fast and powerful line. with the kind of variety of play (sedins intelligence and craftiness, Kesler/booth line of speed/power, and a 3rd/4th line tenacity and grittiness of lapierre, manny, hansen, weiss etc...this becomes a much harder team to beat. Gillis has improved our depth and versatility that much more.

    man, i love having a GM that has a vision and yet isn't afraid to fix/repair mistakes. it might be too early to say, but i think he's really turned this franchise into a perennial contender, and not just one that goes through the 2-3year cycles of bad and good, or worse, years and years of mediocrity that age old nucks fans are all too familiar with.
     
  11. Sir Rodney

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    Hey Beast,

    I wouldn't go so far as to label the Canucks as perennial contenders. We have a package of players who are either at or near the peak of their careers. There's very little to suggest that they have a package of drafted players ready to take over when guys like the Sedins, Salo, etc. start their inevitable diminishing process. The old adage of a window of opportunity exists right now and what Gillis appears willing to do is take advantage of that situation. I go back to the string of posts where I suggested that the Canucks weren't as good as they were last year. I stand by that. The trade Gillis made yesterday was intended to address that. I think he realized that the moves he made during the summer weren't sufficient to maintain the status quo let alone takes strides to improve the team. I give him full credit for recognizing that and doing something to fix it. I doubt he was the least bit concerned about losing Sturm but Samuelsson still was able to help the team. Given the opportunity, I am sure he would have preferred to have Salo's experience for another Cup run.

    One issue that may have been magnified by this trade was the lack of a dependable power play quarterback to replace Erhoff. When Samuelsson spent so much time on the right point, that emphasized my concerns. Now, he's gone as well so that gap still needs to be filled. Salo may well be promoted from the second unit but that option was always there. I keep hearing rumors that there is another trade in the works. I would give odds that it isn't a player like Turris. Either now or at the deadline, Gillis will add that elusive top four defender. I get a kick out of the wish listers who keep beating the drum on Weber signing here in the offseason. I'll believe that one when I see it. In the meantime, I wouldn't hold my breath on a player of that ilk being the one he acquires during this season. Stranger things have happened of course, especially if Nashville has a clear picture that they won't be able to sign him and look to hit a home run now. T'will be interesting. This certainly caught me off guard in a very pleasant way.
     
  12. Original Beast

    Original Beast 2nd Team All-Star

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    Re: ok sir...

    hey SR,

    perhaps i should have said Gillis is "turning" this team in "potential " perennial contenders.(altho i did use the classic disclaimer "it's perhaps too early to say". =0)

    anyhow, my point is i think Gillis is slowly but surely building something solid because of his willingness to keep improving the team with a long term view. in fact, he's been doing long-term things since he's been here from day one - new culture towards players, towards "possible" players, the physical improvements to the working environment,how players eat, sleep, the list goes on. he's also proven that he's not too prideful to hide from his mistakes - acquiring then disposing parts like Bernier, and most recently Sturm. The only deal that really scares me is Louie's 12 year deal, but even then there's an out clause in year 5.

    anyhow, moving two older players of decreasing contributory value on the ice is just another move in this right direction.

    sure, the future is uncertain, that's why this game (and life) is great right? =0). who knows if the Canucks will return to their losing ways when the Sedins decline, or if Kesler's stay as a premier power foward wanes? or if Louie's confidence get's destroyed and Edler never becomes?? but that question goes with EVERY TEAM. BUT my fears of that happening are much less than before the Gillis/Aquilini era. he has in very short order shown his capacity to look foward, think outside of the box, and build something more permanent - a culture of winning, a culture of professionalism. you can sense it from the players that are here and took discounts to stay (Burrows, Kesler, Lou, Sedins, Salo), the ones that choose to come (Sundin, Hamhuis, Maholtra, Sammuelson), and those that have been traded here and chose to stay (higgins,lappiere, and to an extent ballard - who could easily asked to be traded after last year).

    i'm sure in light of this recent trade, most fans are happy, but some seem to want more (especially if you're losing patience =0). would moving Hodgson, Schneider, Raymond, Tanev and some 1sts for Weber satisfy you? or giving up another similar package for a Shane Doan or an Iginla ?? to win it all now?? Nothing's guaranteed my friend, and you know it. last year the stars couldnt' be better aligned, and we still didn't bring home Lord Stanley's mug.

    i think Gillis will continue to improve/fix/adjust this team to continually keep it a contender, much like his model franchise the Red Wings. remember the many that called for their inevitable decline? they kept developing stars, drafting more young players, acquiring players to fit the holes. dog gone good management for a team in a city that no sane American would call enticing to live in these days.

    As for this year, after this trade, i think they are already BETTER than last year. Erhoff has been missed, but he was NOT much of a contributor in the playoffs. remember there's lots of time for more moves. personally i see a rental at the deadline perhaps? and there are some young guys that might prove expendable (mentioned above), but if you unload them now, are we not back to our debate on that first point, building a long-term contender?. we'd all love to have a few Taylor Halls or Tyler Sequins in the back pocket, who doesn't. Barring a lopsided trade, or spending time in the basement for a half a decade, we ain't seeing that kind of "sure thing" draft pick to make us "feel" permanently secure about our future.
     
  13. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Hello Sir...

    I'm more in agreement with Beast, I think the many innovative and forward thinking player friendly off ice moves Gillis has made since coming to Vancouver will continue to make Vancouver one of the most desirable places to play in the league...

    This will give the team an advantage when perusing free agents or re signing his core players...

    A good example of this is and something that is a bit of a worry for me are the Ballard and Booth acquisitions....

    Two players who used a good season to obtain long term contracts at maximum value and in hindsight are now over paid...

    Contrast that to the Canucks ability to re sign core players at under value contracts, but with Gillis trading for over valued contracts does it change the players thinking going forward?....

    If the idea is for players to sign for less than their market value to enable the team to keep its core players and help it build a contender, but then it goes out and acquires players with contracts that are over value why should they continue to re sign for less than their market value?...

    Take care...
     
  14. Sir Rodney

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    Hi Rikster,

    Good point on the home town discounts. Burrows is a prime example of a player who signed for far less than he would have obtained elsewhere. We better enjoy his two remaining years (this year and next) at his current low cap hit of $2 million as it is bound to at least double the year after that). Booth has yet to prove to the Canucks that he is worth his $4.25 million where Burrows is widely considered the lowest paid top line player in the League. Raymond's timing couldn't be worse in terms of his injury. He is a RFA next summer and with Booth's addition to the team long term, the chances of Raymond getting any kind of a career offer from the Canucks are slim to none. If he wants to stay (and assuming the Canucks feel he still has enough to offer) he will have to make a similar deal to what Burrows did a few years ago or he will be playing elsewhere.

    Where it gets pricey on defense is the year after next with Edler. The Spring of 2013 will be very interesting in terms of whether your points about taking less to stay holds true. If both Burrows and Edler look to get a Booth type of deal at the same time, that could signal the end of the run with our current group. You have to figure Edler would get at least what Bieksa is currently being paid at $4.6 and I feel Burrows has earned similar money, that doesn't leave much room to add talent. Which brings me to Hodgson. Both Beast and yourself have been touting his praises much more than I have. His entry level contract expires at the same time as Burrows, Higgins, Lapierre and Edler come up for renewal. Call it bad timing or whatever but I can't see Hodgson being in a strong bargaining position to get anything other than a major discounted salary based on his performance to date. Higgins and Lapierre have found their stock rising. Hodgson is still struggling to find his role. He has played reasonably well but will that be enough to get him his next contract with the Canucks without taking a huge discount?

    I agree totally with you and Beast when it comes to Gillis making Vancouver an attractive place in which to play. When you bring the numbers in to play though, the flexibility to simply add through free agency doesn't really play as big a role. I like playing with the CapGeek numbers to see what moves the Canucks could or should make to be able to improve. From one year to next they have lots of flexibility on the fourth line. If they ever find a combination they really like, then that option goes out the window. To me, it's pointless to keep bringing in veterans simply to flesh out the training camp roster when there realistically aren't any spots available. Booth's addition made that process even less worthwhile.

    One player I haven't mentioned is Salo. Super Swede has earned another one year contract with his calm, dependable play. Hope they give him one.

    Take care.
     
  15. Original Beast

    Original Beast 2nd Team All-Star

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    hey SR,

    I agree with you concerning the cap space for nearing contract negotations. Burrows and Edler will need decent jumps. i think Higgins and Lappierre less so, due to their roles and the fact that mgmts' faith in them gave them that second/third chance to revive their careers.

    i don't dislike the Ballard and Booth deals as much as others - you just have to look at their age/potential, which i think Gillis did, and you say "they'd probably cost that much on the free market" (at the time he picked them up anyways). i think the way Ballard's playing now, and if he continues to improve and stabilize that number 4 position - i can't see anyone complaining too much. i think the same will apply to booth if he fits the role in the top 6. Ironically, Bieksa's deal bothers me a bit, at $4.6m with a no trade, making him the highest paid dman. he's already gotten very sloppy since the signing. and all no-trade deals bother me - they should only go to the franchise players like the twins/kesler/luongo, and even then limited to 5-6 years in length.

    as you mentioned, Raymond will likely be moved, so you save $2 mill there. but you're dead on not much room for free agency signings. (bye bye Weber pipe dreams). Salo doing the one year deals, ala Selanne, would be great.
     
  16. Sir Rodney

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    Hey Beast,

    Regarding Salo, I should have said Fantastic Finn. I doubt he would appreciate being considered a Swede.

    At some point we are going to have to accept that the core will change. Let's play what if for a moment. What if all the speculation on Weber wanting to come to Vancouver is true, then the Canucks would have to seriously consider moving Edler to make room. The locals would likely cry for Ballard to take his place but when you consider what the returns for Edler would be and what his potential next salary would be, he would be their top bargaining chip. Simply trading Hodgson and Schneider doesn't create the space or need by position they would require.

    The next two years are going to be very interesting for the Gillis/Gilman combination. On the one hand, they want to continue to make Vancouver an attractive destination but they also have a responsibility to the players who do sign here that they will be treated with respect and that includes honoring contracts.

    Maybe they just ask us.
     
  17. Original Beast

    Original Beast 2nd Team All-Star

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    hey SR,

    yes, the Fantastic Mr. Finn. we should send that to Sammi. =0)

    the "what if" scenario you bring up is very possible. what will Edler command?? is he gonna become the next pronger/lidstrom?? or are we just paying for potential? Weber is the real thing. But what i think alot of fans don't realize is that Weber is NOT a UFA - he's only a RFA next year. it's Rinne and Suter that are up (Suter ain't bad!). so the price is heavy - too heavy in both assets and cap space.

    personally, i'd rather keep Edler. and if the core does change, and it will, would Edler necessarily be part of transition? he's still young, and defencemen tend to have longer careers. it's an interesting thought. sometimes i think our lack of success on defence is the coaching staffs too high/too early expectations on Edler.

    regarding Schneider and Hodgson - i really want to hold on to both of them. you got to keep youth. and i'd say, no matter what happens, we move Luongo in the 5th year of that deal, where the out-clause sits. in the meantime rotate them. Hodgson can develop slowly on the 3rd line till the twins retire.
    This post was edited on 10/24 11:35 AM by Original Beast
     
  18. Die-hard1

    Die-hard1 6th Round Pick

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    Hey guys,

    As much as I like cap flexibility, the reality is in a cap world you are going to lose some players. That's where young, cheap players come in - and the Nucks have done a good job of bringing in your guys to supplement their vets. That has to continue, because you won't be able to keep everyone around after their contracts are up.

    I also think that, just as Florida was able to trade Ballard and Booth for ok value in return - the Canucks can do the same if they want to. I"m not saying just those two guys, but anybody on the team without a no movement clause can be moved, even if their contract is a bit inflated. Frankly, $4 million or so for guys like Booth (he's scored at least 20 goals every season except his injured one) and Ballard (who looks solid this year) really isn't much of an overpayment, when guys like Connolly, Fleischmann and Joel Ward are getting big money.

    Weber isn't unrestricted this off-season, he's a RFA this time. He's got one more year until he's unrestricted, it's Suter and Rinne who are up this year. Still, I'm not sure that Gillis' model is to pay one dman the $7 million or so a year that Weber would cost, unless he's willing to get rid of some of his depth. He sure likes having lots of players who can play though, which still turned out to be not enough in the cup finals last year. A bit of that was luck of course, especially when the team you are playing has 1 injury and more than half your team is injured.

    I'm cautiously excited to see Booth play - he's fast, strong and has good size (215-220 pounds is a big guy), should play well with Kes who is also a speed demon. I'm hoping he plays like a better version of Mason Raymond, who seems to play well with Kes but doesn't shoot enough. Given Booth's shooting stats, that shouldn't be a problem, and I'm also not too worried about his defense given he's playing with a top, top defensive center.
     
  19. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    There is a difference between RFA market value and UFA market value, though.
     
  20. Die-hard1

    Die-hard1 6th Round Pick

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    Of course there is - but people want cap flexibility to add UFA's, not RFA's. RFA's cost you players, picks, etc - UFA's do not.

    The money given to UFA's is ridiculous though - I'd much rather have Booth than Leino, Cole, Connolly, Upshall, etc - all guys that signed for Booth dollars. For a 2nd line, 20-30 goal guy - $4 million isn't all that much. In fact, many teams want those guys for their 1st line - Booth only has to be the 5th best forward on the Nucks.
     
  21. Sir Rodney

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    Timing Continues To Be The Issue

    Hi Beast,

    I realize Weber is a RFA rather than an UFA next Summer. To get him on the Canucks there would have to be a trade and that's where I see the Canucks having some assets that would appeal to Nashville. They have two UFAs in Suter and Rinne which in itself will bump the decision on Weber up a year. Negotiations this past year did not go well apparently and they may be well aware that he won't be re-signing with them. A combination of Edler and Hodgson could be tempting enough for them to make the move. Schneider wouldn't be a factor as log as they intend on re-signing Rinne which is pretty much a given. Obviously I have no desire to move Edler but the opportunity to get a true number one defenseman doesn't come without a price. The Canucks would be far more willing to give Weber a lucrative long term deal than the Preds have shown. The Preds haven't locked up their core anywhere near what Vancouver has done so they are in need of adding players who could form their nucleus for years to come. Hodgson would play a much more significant role on their roster than he could hope to play in Vancouver.

    Whether this or any other scenario involving the Canucks and Preds ever takes place, this is a deal that should be made this coming summer while that window of opportunity is as open as possible. The fact that Weber is RFA isn't insurmountable for the right price.
     
  22. Original Beast

    Original Beast 2nd Team All-Star

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    Re: Timing Continues To Be The Issue

    Hey SR,

    yeah, i was sure you knew Weber was RFA. =0)

    and yes, a Hodgson, Edler plus package might be what it takes. but even then, does that even clear enuff cap space?? i think Weber makes $7m+?? i can't imagine how much he'd demand for a new contract. Look what doughty was able to ask for recently.

    the other factor to account for is what they think Edler is gonna ask for. if it's unreasonable, Gillis might move him. he strikes me as a GM who's not afraid of making big changes.

    anyhow, right now, i'm as excited as DieHard to see Booth play. i just listened to his interview...seemed like a great kid.
     
  23. Sir Rodney

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    Re: Timing Continues To Be The Issue

    Hi again,

    I am straight guessing here but I think Weber would want a Luongo type of contract where he has long term security for lower dollars. I doubt the Canucks would even consider an offer over $6 million per year as a cap hit, if that. The trade off is that he would get a career based contract on a team geared for long term success (he's only 26 so I could see the Canucks going for a 10-year deal which they normally wouldn't do for a defenseman). That's something he wouldn't get in Nashville and after the debacle there this Summer, he may not be interested in getting that kind of offer from them in any case.

    As to whether or not the deal I proposed would clear enough cap space or not, I would suggest that if there is an opportunity to get a true number one defenseman, Gillis/Gilman would find a way. Whether it would be part of the package offered to Nashville or a subsequent trade, I will leave that to the official experts, not us unofficial types.

    I liked that interview a lot as well. I got a kick out of his comment that if he had been here at the beginning of the season, he would have known more people on the Canucks than he did in Florida.

    Speaking of Florida, I have been chatting a lot to a fellow who sits just in front of me at the Vipers Games. I asked him about the trade and I was surprised that he was a bit disappointed in it but he hoped that it would work out. We had never spoken about his personal life so I had no idea where he came from or what his back story. It turns out he was from Florida and was personal friends with Phil Esposito. He had grown up in the Tampa area and played a lot of hockey so our discussions on all things hockey were very good. He was looking at the trade from the Florida perspective which explained his reaction. Small world once again.
     
  24. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    Okay, but you still didn't get the point. You compared salary of a signed RFA player to signed UFA players. If Booth was a UFA, he'd get more than what he currently earns.
     
  25. Die-hard

    Die-hard MVP

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    No, I got your point - but if you re-read my original post on the subject I said the reason you want cap flexbility is to sign UFA's, not RFA's. In order to get a RFA you need players and picks to trade, not just money.

    If you leave Booth's $4.25 million a season for an UFA, you get a guy like Leino, Fleischmann, etc for that kind of money - and Booth is a better player than those guys.

    My point is that you can either choose to leave that money for a UFA, or trade for a guy who already has a contract in place - either way you're still spending the money and you're likely getting more value for your dollar getting a guy who is already under contract, or who is RFA, because not all teams can bid on them.
     
  26. Die-hard

    Die-hard MVP

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    Re: Timing Continues To Be The Issue

    Hey Sir,

    I too love Shea Weber - IMHO he's the best dman in the NHL right now, and I've watched all of the top ones many times. He's big (240 pounds), mobile, hits to hurt, very good defensively and has a shot that gives goalies nightmares. In short, he's the full package.

    All this said - I'm wondering if Gillis may be targeting another Nashville dman, namely Ryan Suter. He's the same age as Weber, just as good defensively, a slight drop off offensively but he can still be a good PP guy and a solid #1 guy on the blueline.

    He's also an UFA this off-season so would cost less to acquire, and likely could be signed for cheaper given he's not a Norris nominated guy.

    Of course, this all assumes he would want to play in Vancouver, which shouldn't be an issue for Weber given he's from Sicamous. With Booth, Kesler, Higgins, Ballard, Alberts, Schneider all American players you'd think that the Nucks would be a desirable location for guys like Suter as well.

    I do agree that the blueline will be the next place the Nucks look to upgrade - they'll have almost all their top players signed through next year (the only exceptions are Raymond and another deal for Salo) and should have some money to play with.
     
  27. Sir Rodney

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    Re: Timing Continues To Be The Issue

    Hi D-H,

    I haven't heard anything out of Nashville to suggest that Suter isn't interested in re-signing there. That isn't the case with Weber. Apparently the negotiations did not go well at all. There is a hell of a lot of reading between the lines to even remotely suggest that Nashville won't try to re-sign all three of Weber, Suter and Rinne. They will be hard pressed to do so though which works in the Canucks' favor. We are also reading between the lines in terms of Weber wanting to return to BC. Nothing is a given by any means and it could all turn out to be nothing more than wild speculation. When you hear it coming from so many "reliable" sources, you tend to give it more credence than just seeing a star rating from Eklund.

    In order to have the cap space in order to sign Weber, the Canucks would have to move players and salary out. To be honest, I don't see the UFA versus RFA compensation being a stumbling block if it came down to that. Either Weber is interested in leaving Nashville and coming to Vancouver or he isn't. That's the only real issue. The rest is a matter of details.

    You have to think that the ones least enthused about a move like this would be the depth defensemen on the Canucks. Weber would consume a lot of ice time which would reduce the minutes available to the third pairing significantly. Ballard is another name who logically comes to mind as being a potential trading piece. If he was obviously the one who would suffer that ice time loss, I could see him wanting to be moved. That would free up the cap and time on the blue line. The reduced minutes would be fine for guys like Tanev, Sauve or Connauton working their way in to the lineup but not for a veteran like Ballard. He wouldn't be my first choice for a ticket out of town based on his play so far but you just know Bieksa or Hamhuis won't be in that category. I didn't mention Salo because I could still see him having another good year left in the tank and with his dependable play, I could see him finishing his career with the Canucks, especially if they went in to the season as a favorite to win the Cup.

    Ain't speculatin' fun?
     
  28. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    Ah, ok. Now i see what you were trying to say.

    Although.......it also depends on how deep the UFA pool is. For now we can say that Booth was a better player than those guys. I think he will do just fine with the top talent in Vancouver, but it's what i think, not a certainty.
     
  29. Die-hard

    Die-hard MVP

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    Re: Timing Continues To Be The Issue

    Hey Sir,

    I'm assuming that Ballard would have to be the one moved if anybody is - and I don't think anybody will be this year, barring some surprise massive trade for a guy like Weber. My reasoning is he's got some value, he's got a large enough cap hit, and he's also not part of the leadership group like Bieksa is. I'm assuming that Salo would stay because he's only got a few years left, and Tanev is too young to have a ton of value - his cheap contract would be needed as well if a big time dman is signed.

    Regardless, if a guy like Weber is available there will be lots of bidders for him. The fact that Nashville is moving to the east next year will be helpful, as they'd be trading him out of the conference. I'm still not sure what will happen there, but it seems that Rinne, Suter and Weber are not happy given the team took yet another step back in the off-season.

    We'll see what happens - for now let's see what Booth can do tonight!
     
  30. Die-hard

    Die-hard MVP

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    Agreed - if the UFA pool is anything like it was this past season then middle of the road guys will get huge money. I expect that will be the norm quite often given how many guys are signed long-term.

    I'm hoping to see Booth at his best - he should fit the Nucks system very well, let's hope I'm right.
     
  31. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    Re: Booth's 1st game

    Not bad considering the Nucks didn't play much hockey in the first half of the game. Again i saw him stare at his line-mates working the board and corners though. I understand he is trying to get open, but come on David, you used to do a lot of puck digging before you broke out. Get back to work.

    Obviously he needs a few games to adjust to the team and probably the fact that he was traded still has to sink in, i think. He's got to chase the opportunities, though, not wait for them. I hope he realizes that. Man o man.........it was so weird seeing him on Vancouver : \ (sigh)....
     
  32. Original Beast

    Original Beast 2nd Team All-Star

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    Re: Timing Continues To Be The Issue

    hi sir,

    i didn't realize Weber is so young. that makes me more willing to move Edler for him, given WEber is proven.

    funny all this talk about Luongo - truth is, if he had a Weber/Hamhuis pair defending him, we win the cup. =0)
    which brings me back to the days when Luongo was viewed as unbeatable - it was when our team played a much tigher defensive game - AND Willie Mitchell was there cleaning up Lou's rebounds, and distributing his nastiness in front. i miss that guy.

    anyhow, let's see how this year plays out. if Weber really wants to be here, Gillis should make it happen. (if only we could trade either Bieksa/Ballard in a pkg instead - Bieksa got a NTC - he didnt' deserve that).
     

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