Jake Gardner?

Discussion in 'Hockey Talk' started by rikster, Apr 28, 2012.

  1. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Listening to some of the Leaf beat writers and reading a few of the boards, there seems to be a common theme that the Leafs shouldn't deal Gardner for Luongo...

    Are you kidding me?

    Jake Gardner?

    The Nucks have a similar player in Kevin Cannauton who won the hardest shot at the AHL all star game this year who is projected to get a sniff with the parent team next season, like Gardner he would have played in the NHL this season if he was a Leaf, but on a much deeper Nucks blue line he was allowed to develop on the farm team which is where Gardner should have been this season...

    Jake Gardner does not get the Leafs into the playoffs...

    The Leafs should have no untouchables, including Jake Gardner...

    With Luongo, the Leafs would have a high profile player on their team which they have been lacking for years and they would most likely have made the post season this year which even the Leaf beat writers acknowledge....

    If Jake Gardner is a deal breaker for the Leafs in a deal with Luongo, then Burkey has really lost it...

    Take care...
     
  2. Sir Rodney

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    Sweet Lemons and Sour Grapes

    Hi Rikster,

    You can expect a lot of this sort of thing as we move towards a deal. There is a lot of over rating of the assets you have and under valuing the assets the opposition has to offer. That's normal wheeling and dealing. Every team does it in and I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. In fact, I would prefer some more sleep. My dog got me up at a quarter to six thinking a morning stroll was a good idea. At least one of us did.

    I fully expect that any team we deal with will want to unload a big salary and that's why we should be focusing more on the type of expensive player who might be coming our way. I know the Toronto media has pumped the tires of Komisarek but I can't see that. You like Schenn as do I but if no one is untouchable, then Phaneuf would bring a degree of nasty to the Canuck blue line that they are lacking once you get beyond Juice. When it all shakes out, if there isn't any deal that is cost effective for the Canucks, the media may have jumped the gun in automatically assuming the Canucks won't or can't keep both goal tenders, even with Schneider getting a big pay bump and becoming the de factor number 1. No deal may turn out to be better than a bad deal. We all know that Gillis is notorious for not tipping his hand but any interviews I've heard suggest that any possibility including not making a trade is still up for debate. Will Luongo be moved? More than likely but if won't be for someone that isn't going to be part of the team moving forward.

    The center piece of the trade will involve at least one of the aspects that Gillis has said all along we need: to get younger and get bigger. Interesting how he never mentions positional needs. That indicates a well placed confidence in the core at all positions.
     
  3. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Hi Sir Rodney...

    lol at the no sleep complaint....I said to my wife the other day that I had slept in and it felt good, mind you I woke up at 5:00 that day which is about an hour later than I normally do....

    A few years ago I got tired of going to a gym after work so I built one in my house and enjoy spending an hour or so working out every morning, and since my day at work starts pretty early I can leave the office around 3:00 guilt free...

    Regarding Luongo, first off the owners have a pretty good idea of the changes they will make in the next CBA, the amount of teams that are interested in Luongo might give us a glimpse at what the owners want to claw back in the next agreement...

    Don't take the comments lightly when most experts feel that with Luongo in the Leafs or Tampa Bay net last season those teams make the post season....

    The Canucks had 3 home games in this years playoffs, each was worth millions of dollars to them..

    Those 3 playoff games paid for Luongo's contract ...

    Those 3 playoff games could keep the Tampa Bay franchise from running red ink on their bottom line...

    In Toronto I couldn't imagine the revenue generated in that city with 3 playoff games let alone a run into the second round or further...

    The problem I see with the Nucks dealing with Tampa is that the Luongo contract would be one of their better contracts when you consider the Lecavalier, St Louis , Ohlund and Brewer deals...

    The player I would target from their team is Brett Connolly and I would take back a contract not because I think that is the only way the Nucks can move Luongo, but because that might be the only way the Bolts can fit Luongo into their teams salary cap and for Connolly I think it is worth it for the Nucks to do that....

    Say the Bolts added Brewer to the deal for Tanev or Connauton which frees up almost $3 million from the Bolts payroll...

    Toronto is my second choice because as far as I know, they don't have a young stud like Connolly in their system...

    I'm not a fan of Kadri's attitude and it doesn't fit into the Gillis model of bigger and faster...

    If Luongo forced the issue with Toronto, I could see a Schenn and picks for Luongo and Tanev....

    If Toronto wants the Nucks to take the Reimer contract back, maybe Luongo and Lack for Schenn and one of Toronto's prospects and or picks...

    interesting how the media have gone from no teams will be interested in Luongo to now some teams have to make a major push to acquire Luongo...

    When fans around the league start to learn how good Luongo has been over his time in Vancouver, especially playing in an offensive system, they will also warm to him and start to demand their team get in on the bidding...

    Makes you wonder why fans in Vancouver have been so hard on him, myself included, for me it was his attitude in his first few years that was just too cocky for my liking...

    Take care...
     
  4. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    AHEM!!!! Keep these talks in the main off-season thread of non-playoff teams or eliminated playoff teams!

    If Luongo was between 28-30 years old, i'd see your point. But, he is 33 and will be 34 next year. I wouldn't want to trade a solid young d-man that can potentially be a solid second pair guy down the road. Not for an aging goalie who apparently chokes under pressure.

    I still think Luongo to Toronto will be idiotic. A ridiculous amount of pressure there. Media is nasty. Fans are nasty. He doesn't get a solid team in front of him either. Luongo is an emotional player. He is either cocky and plays like a Vezina winning goalie, or he is moody and loses confidence.

    For Luongo's own sake, he should want to be traded to a low profile team. Depending on what Columbus gets for Nash (and who knows if there could ever be such a trade between CBJ and Nucks), that team will look pretty solid next season. Ever since that Carter trade JJ really gave a breath of fresh air to that team and it played a lot better. Plus, i think they should trade their 2nd overall as well and improve the team.

    I think Luongo would thrive on a team like Columbus. I think he'd be great in Tampa. Toronto? Insane.
     
  5. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    lol

    You say Luongo age is working against him, I say that is one of the advantages of his contract under the current CBA....

    Think of it as a 2 team contract, say Tampa or Toronto trades for him this summer and keeps him for the next 4 to 5 years while he is still able to perform at a high level...

    Then as he moves into a back up role, a have not team who are forced to reach the salary floor acquires him for the value of the back end of his contract when the actual dollars paid out are nominal but the cap hit is unchanged...

    Now, it all depends on future CBA's, but as it is now his deal has real value today for a competitive team and real value down the road for a non competitive team with low revenues...

    Take care...

    ps, that hurt!
     
  6. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    Meh.... it's not a scenario that you can depend on.
     
  7. Die-hard

    Die-hard MVP

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    We'll hear lots of stories from now until the draft or July 1st about Luongo. Fact is, if he was on the market this summer he'd be getting a better contract than he's got, so I don't see it as a negative.

    He'll go somewhere for a decent return - not great (i.e. top 5 pick and a young player) but he'll get something like a decent 3rd/4th liner, a good young player and a late 1st/early 2nd.

    The funny thing about Lu is if he had won game 7 last year he would have been a Conn Smythe winner, but since he lost he's crap.

    We'll hear all sorts of posturing from the potential buyers up until then - I'm sure Leaf writers will talk about how Komisarek is all they would give up - but he will be wanted.
     
  8. Janus

    Janus NHL

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    I'm agreed that there's no way I deal Gardiner for Lu, and its nothing against Lu. I can't speak for Connauton but Gardiner has shown definite signs of being a special player. He may not end up reaching that level, but the potential is there. The Leafs aren't exactly brimming with prospects of that calibre and can't afford to be trading them away.

    You say Gardiner doesn't get them into the playoffs but Lu could, I say Lu might have gotten them into the playoffs this year to become road kill while in a couple years Gardiner could be a difference maker for the Leafs blueline in a longer playoff run.

    I like what Lu would bring now, I don't like what his contract brings down the road. I think there will be other options on the market that could bring the goalie upgrade we need without the long term contract concerns. And I suspect the return for Lu won't be as high as many in Vancouver think but we could argue that back and forth all day. We'll just have to wait and see.

    Regards
     
  9. CF

    CF MVP

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    Not a chance. We Leafs fans tend to over protect our prospects on most days, but in Gardiner's case he is being undervalued big time. Not surprisingly, the media are doing their usual thing when it comes to assembling short sighted trade ideas.

    Only a drunken monkey would trade Jake Gardiner in the Luongo deal.

    Do you guys honestly expect to get anything for Luongo other than another bad contract in return?
     
  10. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    I don't think most fans or media types, especially those in the East understand the details of the Luongo contract...

    And they are commenting on a contract under the context of the current CBA which is about to expire...

    And Luongo is still considered an upper echelon goaltender who can take a number of teams over the hump and into the playoffs, which given the way this post season has gone, can lead to miracle runs...

    Burkey has been looking for a goaltender for along time, this might be the off season that he finally lands one and if it takes a prospect like Jake Gardner to do the deal then I say he goes for it...

    But as much as some Leaf fans wouldn't want to make that move, I'd suggest there are many more who want the Leafs to be involved in the post season and understand that with Luongo their chances just went up in a big way...

    As a Nuck fan, I'd be disappointed to see Gardner be anything but a top up in a deal for Luongo and think he is the type of player that the Nucks have in their system already and not what will get them closer to a Cup, especially understanding how much harder the games get in the post season...

    Take care...
     
  11. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    The Leafs have a below standard back end, so I get how Leaf fans might think he is untouchable...

    But how often does a throw in on a deal become "special"?..

    The Leafs have a number of bad contracts, and as a perennial non playoff team will continue to be forced to over pay to attract and keep players...

    Maybe your right that Luongo has a short shelf life but if in that time he can bring respectability to the Leaf organization and some playoff games, then his value will be more than what he does on the ice and will be more about what he does in helping the Leafs attract quality free agents at reasonable terms and re signing players like Gardner to fair and hopefully undervalue contracts...

    As it stands now, why would any player give a discount to play for the Leafs?

    Does having a Jake Gardner help the Leafs attract fair contracts?

    Players like Jake Gardner come along often, just ask every other team in the league who also think they have the next special prospect in their system...

    Take care...
     
  12. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    More cut and paste from our Canuck insider...

    Hi Sir Rodney...

    The following is from that insider who has access to the inside of Canucks Nation...

    On AV:

    Wants to come back. Was part of the decision re Luongo/Cory and is fine with how it all went down. Has been silent waiting for MG to get his deal and business attended to. MG wants him back and it is expected that he will get a similar 4 year extension same as MG. MG has assured several players that AV will be back. The players are big AV supporters and want him back. A feeling of unfinished business. WOW.

    On Luongo:

    Toronto is the front runner, for now. Allaire is the draw that has Luongo putting them on his list that does not exist. The cost will be high as MG does have 3 other teams that are also very high on Luongo but MG wants to try and deal Luongo to one of his top two choices, not at the risk of a bad deal, however.

    Kassian:

    Players love him and feel he is the real deal. Described as a good kid and real team player. Was just a little lost at the end of the year and hasn't found a role. He is described as very reserved and shy. Team has him on a strict off season training plan and the players are very high on what he can bring to the team down the road. Next year may be a little too early to see what it is felt he can bring so time will tell.

    Hodgson:

    Not missed

    Salo:

    Wants to come back one more year. Canucks have said the same thing to him as last year, we want you back but we have to wait to see what we can afford over the summer.

    Burrows:

    Took a home team discount last time with no regrets but won't this time around. Wants to re-sign but at full market value or he will go to UFA.

    Manny:

    Canucks are unsure whether he can regain his form and he may be bought out if he can't. They are very non comital about him but will not go into the season with him if he has not improved his all round game.

    MayRay:

    Still up in the air if they qualify him. Don't feel he is worth the money he would make but don't want to lose an asset for nothing. Will try to move his rights before July 1.

    Edler:

    Undisclosed injuries but I can't get any more than that but I'm thinking the back is just not right.

    Pahlsson:

    Are very high on him and would like him back as their third line centre, which could mean another nail for Manny.

    Down on the Farm:

    They are expecting 2-4 players to make an impact at camp. Hopeful Eddie can be back up but they aren't sure if he is ready. Camp will tell but they are also looking for a veteran back up if Luongo is moved. High on Connaughton and he may get a hard look this year. Our diminutive centre will get a long look especially with Kesler's rehab. Would like at least 2 players to break through and make the team for obvious cap reasons and for future development reasons.

    Thats it for now. Now off to travel until June. Hopefully I will come back to lots of news.

    ***********************************************************************************************

    The thinking that Cannauton makes the jump next year, along with Tanev and Gragnani means the team could have 3 rookies on the blue line next season which is why I could see Salo returning next year to mentor the kids...

    I think the way this post season is playing out increases the value for Luongo...It seems if you have a very good goalie and a system that plays inside the dots in your own end, you have a very good chance of being sucessful...

    Having said that, I think the league will once again crack down on the obstruction that has somehow found its way back into the game, so this might be a short term recipe for success...

    Take care...
     
  13. Sir Rodney

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    Re: More cut and paste from our Canuck insider...

    Hi Rikster,

    The previous information was pretty much on the mark so hopefully this will be as accurate.

    The Gillis/AV situation. No surprises there. I particularly like the comment about the players endorsing AV's return.

    Luongo to Toronto. The Allaire relationship makes sense but if even part of his relationship issues with Gina is true, you would think one of the Florida teams would still be his preferred destination. It would definitely make watching Leaf hockey interesting again. Maybe that's a stretch.

    Kassian. It was obvious he was like a deer in the headlights and wasn't ready for the pressure of the playoffs. We've discussed his busy Summer. I look forward to when he reaches his potential. Like Gillis said, this kind of player is never available. You have to develop them. We were fortunate to have one that can be moulded from scratch.

    Hodgson. Close that door and move on. It will be interesting to see how long the bloom fades in Buffalo.

    Salo. Elder statesman and class all the way. Limited minutes but still worth having. Good news there.

    Burrows. He deserves market value but for how long a term. When his contract expires, he will be 33. Unfortunately he will likely move on.

    Manny. His career effectively ended with that injury. What a shame!

    MayRay. Draft Day deal. Most likely part of a Luongo package. I just don't see any way he'll be back at $2.8 million. Money better spent elsewhere.

    Edler. There had to be some reason his play tailed off so badly. Hope a Summer off will get him back in to form and that we don't hear about another player having major surgery.

    Pahlsson. He did the job almost as well as Malhotra before the injury. We can't afford two roster spots though.

    I fully expect them to add a veteran to back up Schneider. They need to be able to absorb 15 or more games to keep Schneider fresh. When you look at the number of young kids potentially being slotted in, that scares me given what we've seen in this year's playoffs. To have two relatively inexperienced goalies, and three young defensemen in the lineup, and then add Kassian and Schroeder up front, that's more than a third of a lineup. It's one thing to work some kids in for salary cap considerations but that's too many all at once. The three defensemen in particular are not the front of the net clearing types which seems to be the flavor of the month. Tanev needs to continue to bulk up as he tends to be more of a peripheral type. Connauton has a lot of offensive upside but his defensive zone coverage is the criticism we hear about continually. Gragnani is more of the same. A name not mentioned is Alberts. He still has a year left on his contract. He doesn't have the skill set of the other three mentioned but he does have the size we need back there. You have to assume Rome is gone but there goes more grit as well. I will concede that when you have talented youth, you have to break them in as soon as you can but to do so all at once, is too much.

    The over riding factor in all of this is who the Canucks get in the Luongo deal? This report doesn't take into consideration the additions the Canucks will have and who may well be leaving as a result of trades. It looks like these players aren't part of their plan for next year: Luongo, Malhotra, Raymond, Rome and possibly Alberts. It isn't reasonable to expect the Luongo trade alone to shore up their needs for more grit including a top six forward and a top four defenseman. If they are really interested in making a run at the Cup in 2012/13 they have to add those two players and to do so, they are going to have to create some Cap room. We've identified Ballard as someone who's over paid for his role as a third pairing defenseman and another who hasn't proven to be what we were hoping for as a power forward is Booth. There wouldn't be a surprise if Ballard was moved but Booth makes some sense as well.

    My bottom line is that the Canucks have to do more than add youth to their lineup. I would have loved to have been there for Gillis' meeting with Aquilini when he outlined his "plan" for moving forward. I still believe we will start to see the start of the action plan at the Draft. Things should start to clarify very soon.

    Have a safe holiday. Talk to you when you get back.
     
  14. Die-hard

    Die-hard MVP

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    LOL - I always find this stuff hilarious - when's the last time a star player was dumped for nothing? I guess if you go back far enough you can say Malakhov, but NJ had major cap issues that year and the Nucks have none of those.

    We heard the same thing with Richards, with Carter, with Brian Campbell, now with Nash - there's no possible way they can get fair value for these guys! All of their contracts are much worse than Lu's and they all did quite well, Lu will get plenty of value back too.

    Fact is, if the Nucks don't get fair value for Lu then he stays. They have no problem paying him and have buckets of money to do so.

    As for Jake Gardiner, his situation reminds me of Ohlund back when he first came to the Nucks - their D was so bad that Ohlund looked like a star compared to most of them. Turned out that he was a solid player for years, but not a star. I personally think Gardiner will be a solid dman in the NHL for a number of years, but he's not the second coming that many Leaf fans think he is.

    Personally I'd rather have Schenn, another puck mover isn't what the Nucks need, they need a two way guy with some snarl. Schenn has been screwed up royally by the former Leaf coach but he's similar to Jovanovski and Ehrhoff that a change of scenery is needed.
     
  15. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Re: More cut and paste from our Canuck insider...

    Hi Sir Rodney

    I wish I was off on a holiday, the Canucks insider is off on holidays...

    Take care...
     
  16. Janus

    Janus NHL

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    The Leafs defensive performance had more to do with the lack of a team defensive system and struggling goaltending than having 'below standard' players. Odd that Phaneuf was able to play significant minutes on a strong defensive team in Calgary and Franson logged solid minutes on a good defence in Nashville yet in TO they are 'below standard'. Carlyle commented on the state that Beauchamin was in when he reurned from playing for the Leafs. He said it took him a month to get his confidence back. Yet after that he was a reliable defender for Anaheim. Little wonder Schenn has seemed as messed up as he has at times.

    The problem isn't the pieces, it is the utilization. There are plenty of examples of strong defensive clubs in the NHL with seemingly no-name players and that is because a good defensive record comes from a team commitment to a good system. It doesn't have to be a trapping system if you've got the talent to go with the effort but you just can't throw two guys on the ice and say 'go prevent the other guys from scoring' and expect that to be your defence.

    We'll just have to agree to disagree on our assessments of Gardiner's potential but you are way off in calling him a throw in. When the Leafs made that trade they had to go out of their way to spin it that Lupul wasn't just a salary dump. The trade was about getting Gardiner and Lupul was added to offest the salaries. We got lucky that Lupul has bounced back as well as he has. If he'd been a serviceable 2nd liner the Leafs would have been happy, as it is we win big time.

    As for your tangent about UFA's and salaries, that's irrelevant. This club is not a couple of key UFA signings away from being a Cup challenger. With the age of the core of this club that's probably 2-3 years away if all goes well. Sure Lu would make the Leafs better and would help them get into and progress further in the playoffs, but in no way should we be expecting to land a big UFA and suddenly be in the Cup finals next year. Given Burke's track record with UFA's I hope he stays away from that market anyway.

    But on the topic of salaries and payroll the problem with Lu's contract isn't the money, that is pretty trivial overall for the Leafs. The concern is cap space. A cap hit of $5.3M isn't outrageous for a player of his calibre but potentially having that on the books for a decade is, especially with the CBA uncertainty. Some might dismiss the concern but the reality is in 3 years time you have a 36 year old goalie who has 7 years left on a contract that no one will want. If he doesn't want to retire and refuses to waive his no trade, the team is stuck with the cap hit.
     
  17. Die-hard

    Die-hard MVP

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    Hi Janus,

    I don't think you watched Phaneuf much in Calgary if you thought he was good there - he was a joke defensively, got walked around all the time. I think he's improved since he came to TO. Franson was a #5/#6 on an ultra-trapping team like the Preds. Guys like Kevin Klein and Alexander Sulzer also played very well in that system so I'm not sure what your point is.

    On Gardiner - I don't think your comment was aimed at me because I don't consider him a throw in - but he's simply not Drew Doughty, or Erik Karlsson or any of these other young potential #1 guys - he's a guy who will be a solid dman. I could be proven wrong but that's what I think, and I said the same about Kaberle for years but Leaf fans were all over me about that. Turns out I was right, and hopefully for your sake I'm not right this time.

    On Lu - again, Leaf fans are downplaying his value. I think it's hilarious - any player who they want, or who might become a Leaf, has no value or less than we think. If the Leafs don't want to pay up Gillis moves on somewhere else, it's the Leafs that need him a lot more than the Canucks need to trade him to Toronto.

    Lastly, Lu's contract is not 10 years - it's 6 years. The last 4 years can either be bought out for almost nothing, or he will retire. Lu's contract is slightly below market for a goalie of his ilk, just look at the Rinne and Kiprusoff contracts. He's got good value and will get good value in return, the fan and media spin from Toronto aside.

    As for his no trade and being stuck with the cap hit - you might want to look a little bit closer at his deal, the NTC only lasts 4 more years. So there you go - no chance of being stuck with his cap hit, so it's a much better contract than you think.
     
  18. Clint27

    Clint27 MVP

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    Amen to that...

    ..in Gardiner the Leafs look like they could have a legitimate offensive defenceman who could be a star in the league. Hopefully Carlyle can get Schenn going again and the Leafs would have a solid pairing.
    Its been noted that Gardiner is not Karlsson...I'm glad..Karlsson wasn't Karlsson until this year, and where was he in the playoffs?? He was easily nulified. Hopefully it was a learning experience for him, and he'll only get better..if not, only useful to get to the playoffs.
    I like Lou, think he would help immensely, but I think he'll end up in Tampa. He'd be close to the inlaws, and with the firepower Tampa has, they are a goaltender closer to contending than Toronto is....though if he came to Toronto and played well, he'd own the city and double his salary with endorsements.

    Great to see you back CF
     
  19. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    Re: Amen to that...

    Tampa may not have the money to spend on Luongo's contract and they also need better d-men too. I think they can improve their goaltending if they get Vokoun or just a better goaltender than what they currently have, and then wait for a better opportunity to sign a goalie.

    Gardiner looked good, very good, but he still has some ways to prove himself. He is definitely not worth trading. He must be kept.
     
  20. Janus

    Janus NHL

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    My point was that system and team play can have more to do the defensive performance of a club that the specific set of players on the blueline and a group of defensemen can look far better or far worse than they are as a result. I've certainly seen Phaneuf's defensive warts and I'm not playing Franson up to be a top defender. I'm responding to the comment earlier by rikster about the "below-standard back end" on the Leafs. If they actually start playing some defence as a team then the group we have is capable of a much better showing than this year. That's not to say I'm expecting any Norris trophies but I certainly think they are capable of at least middle of the pack numbers. That is all a digression in any case.

    Would I class Gardiner with Doughty or Karlsson? Not at this point but since you brought them up he did put up better numbers as a rookie than either of them. (And yes I know they were both 19 in their rookie year while Gardiner was 21.) We've all had a hard time pinning down what it means to be a #1 d-man. Karlsson gets mentioned because he was phenominal offensively and sound defensively. Doughty more for being solid on both sides. I'd peg Gardiner as a guy who could be in the top 10-15 in d-man scoring while being reliable defensively. Not elite but good enough to be on the top pair of a contender which makes him a core part of the teams future IMO.

    As for downplaying Lu's value don't lump me in with the whole "Leaf's fans undervaluing players they are after group" because frankly I'm not even convinced I want Lu on the Leafs and I'm doubtful that is where he'll end up anyway. Taking the Leafs out of the equation entirely I still think the return for him will be less than Van fans think. You made a comment elsewhere about a 3/4th liner, a good young player and a late 1st/early 2nd and I think you aren't too far off with that except I say Van will have to eat some salary to get that return. Then in another post you bring up Richards, Carter and Campbell to support the arguement of Lu bringing a good retun. Well, Richards and Carter were both 26 when dealt with comparable cap hits to Lu's. Chicago got Olesz for Campbell and he spent the season in the AHL, that essentially consitutes a salary dump deal.

    I just don't see a big market for him out there, especially when you look at the very limited movement in goalies in recent years. About the only goalie trades of significance were the Anderson-Elliot swap (neither were deemed prime assets at the time) and the Varlamov for a 1st and 2nd deal. Otherwise teams develop from within or go UFA. Looking through the league and eliminating teams that seem to be set in goal or are in Vancouver's division I really only see Toronto, Tampa, Florida, San Jose and Columbus as teams who should be seriously interested. I can't see Lu being interested in Columbus so lets drop that one and I'd guess Gillis would prefer to have him out of the Conference so San Jose would be doubtful. Tampa and Florida make the most sense to me and Gillis would likely have the best luck trying to play one off the other, convincing them they need to block the other team as much as needing to aquiring him. If one of those two is soft in their interest Gillis may have a hard sell on his hands.

    Lastly when it came to the trade option I was going by CapGeek and they say he has the following:

    NTC (player can supply five-team trade list following final game of 2013-14, valid through July 15, 2014; if player does not submit trade list at that time, team can request a five-team trade list following final game of 2017-18 season, valid through Sept. 1, 2018). If player submitted a trade list in 2014 and was not moved, team loses right to request trade list in 2018.

    That would mean if Lu opts to not offer a list in 2 years time he'll be protected for 5 years (until he's 38). So a trade would be unlikely but the buyout option might make sense.
     
  21. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    Panthers are not interested in Luongo.
     
  22. Janus

    Janus NHL

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    Maybe they should pretend to be to drive up the cost for Tampa...
     
  23. Sir Rodney

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    Luongo To Tampa

    I realize it's Eklund but we've heard about the swap of huge contracts before. The stumbling block for a Vancouver/Tampa trade appears to be the Lecavalier contract. I can't see the the Canucks taking on that contract unless the Bolts took Ballard's as part of the deal. A straight one-for-one deal is a non-starter. I could see Lecavalier as a fit with the Canucks, particularly as a temporary replacement for Kesler in the short run. Even with Kesler's return, the Kesler/Lecavalier combination would be the nucleus of a very good second line. It's the size of the contract both in dollars and years that the Canucks apparently aren't interested in. Compared to what their core is being paid, this would completely throw everything out of whack.
     
  24. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    Yzerman apparently played down Luongo talks. Like i said, they cannot afford that contract.
     
  25. maineblackbear

    maineblackbear 1st Team All-Star

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    My Question Would Be WHY Would You Want Luongo?

    Why would the Leafs want Luongo?

    If it isnt crystal clear by now, that he is incredibally overrated, and a HUGE postseason choker, then I dont know what will convince anyone.

    Adding his contract would be a ridiculous mistake for Burke to make. He'd be better off trying to add Tim Thomas for 2 or 3 years. He is MUCH better than Luongo.

    Why make yet another mistake?

    Later
     
  26. maineblackbear

    maineblackbear 1st Team All-Star

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    Luongo Doesnt Campare With Richards

    Forget the contracts....look at VALUE and PRODUCTION.

    Luongo now has 2 straight postseason collapses.

    Mike Richards has been a very good playoff performer. Nash has had virtually nobody to play with and has done very well considering.

    He'll bring something in trade. BUt I dont see anyone shelling anything great out for him. If he had a good playoff resume to help, it would be very different.

    Later
     
  27. maineblackbear

    maineblackbear 1st Team All-Star

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    He would have won the Conn Smythe?

    He had more than just the awful game 7. He had 2 other games in just that 1 series in which he feel apart.

    So, you think he gets the Nucks a 1st rd pick....3rd liner...and a good young player?

    Now...this is from a Boston standpoint....assuming we didnt have Tnomas and Rask.

    No way would I give a 1st....plus a Rich Peverley and a guy like Spooner, Knight or Hamilton for Luongo. No way in hell.

    Later
     
  28. maineblackbear

    maineblackbear 1st Team All-Star

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    Another Thing To Consider

    You also need to consider this....

    Why would teams go after Luongo and that contract in trade, when they could sign Vokoun for much better money, or trade for Tim Thomas? They could get Thomas for a year, and if it doesnt work...you move on.

    If Luongo doesnt work...your entire franchise is screwed for 6 years. And he now has a legit rep for being a guy who cant take the bright ligts and heat of the biggest moments. Who would want to hitch to that horse wqhen there are more attractice options out there?

    Later
     
  29. Die-hard

    Die-hard MVP

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    Re: My Question Would Be WHY Would You Want Luongo?

    Hey Jeff,

    Good to hear from you! I love these debates, where everyone is trying to push for their own guy. Thomas is old, a team like the Leafs who needs a goalie for a few years isn't going to pick him up. They need a longer term option - and keep in mind that Tim Thomas had almost the same stats as Lu this year (almost identical actually) on a much more defensive team. He's not MUCH better, it's actually questionable if he is better given he's as old as Lu will be in 5 years, after Lu's 6 year contract is up. Yes it's 10 years, but the buyout is so tiny after 6 it really doesn't matter.

    Personally I don't really care which goalie the Nucks trade - Luongo is far from a playoff choker (check the numbers if you don't believe me, a 2.17 GAA and a .917 saves %) but I don't really care if people keep pushing that angle.

    The fact is the Nucks have two great assets to trade and there are lots of teams who need goalies. We'll see who ends up with who.
     
  30. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Are the Leafs closer to being good than we thought?

    Rick Dudley seems to think so...

    Some interesting observations as he left Toronto bound for his new job in Montreal and in particular his thoughts about the need for an established elite goaltender...

    Kinda makes me nervous about the prospect of not having Luongo in Vancouver next season, have to keep telling myself that Schneider is very good too...

    If Luongo does end up in Toronto, I can just imagine the build up to the Habs and Price vs the Leafs and Luongo matchups , something that the executives at TSN and CBC would be drooling over...

    Kinda hope it happens for that reason alone...

    Take care...

    A goaltender away...
     
  31. Sir Rodney

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    Re: Are the Leafs closer to being good than we thought?

    I wonder if there is a bit of Machiavelli in play here with Dudley's comments. Now that he is no longer with the organization, part of his motivation could be (I am not suggesting that it is, only that it could be) to weaken the Leafs by providing a shopping list for the Canucks. Let's face it, if the Leafs do go after Luongo, there's a price to be paid and high on the tab will be exactly the kind of players Dudley has identified. If I were a Leaf fan, I wouldn't get too excited about all of the players Dudley mentioned ever wearing blue and white. At least one of them would be involved in the trade with the Canucks and tops on that list would be Gardiner.

    I find it interesting that names of players under contract to another team do get mentioned so specifically. I have no problem with the media speculating but if someone connected to the team actually comes out and says they are interested in acquiring a veteran goal tender like Luongo, once again the cloud of tampering comes into play. I realize there is a ton of games-man-ship happening here with informal negotiating behind the scenes and the media being desperate for hockey related stories beyond the two remaining teams in the playoffs. It's fun to play what if but I also find it interesting that Gillis has never mentioned a player on another roster as being someone he has interest in.
     
  32. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Re: Are the Leafs closer to being good than we thought?

    I agree...

    What I am finding surprising is the talk now coming out of Toronto by some in the media thinking the return for Luongo to be higher than what I think most Canuck fans think it will be....

    Take care...
     
  33. Die-hard

    Die-hard MVP

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    Re: My Question Would Be WHY Would You Want Luongo?

    Hey Jeff,

    Feel like recanting your statement about Tim Thomas now? You were so sure he's much better than Luongo - and now he might not even play next year? No GM in his right mind will give up anything for a guy he's not sure will even want to play.

    Guess somebody put their foot in their mouth on this one........
     
  34. The Messenger

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    Re: Are the Leafs closer to being good than we thought?

    Vancouver can have Burke back in the Luongo deal no problem, but they're not getting Gardiner.
     
  35. maineblackbear

    maineblackbear 1st Team All-Star

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    Re: My Question Would Be WHY Would You Want Luongo?

    I personally think the Nucks should hitch their horse to Schneider. I lobve him. I think they wouold have had a better chance at beating the Bruins and Kings had Schneider been the day in day out starter.

    I think he is mentally tougher and that is huge, huge HUGE in the playoffs. Thats why I like Thomas...nothing rattles him. He tunes everything out. Watching the demeanor of Thomas as opposed to Luongo during last years final was very revealing. Luongo was sweating every time a camera was on him. Thomas was Thomas. Smiling. Single minded focus.

    I also like Bostons goaile situation. Whether Thomas plays next year or not, he still has a couple good years left, I think its time to make the switch from Timmy to Tuuka now. Rask is the future and he should be as good as Thomas has been.

    Later
     
  36. Sir Rodney

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    Re: My Question Would Be WHY Would You Want Luongo?

    Hi Jeff,

    I don't know if things would have turned out differently last year with Schneider in the net or not. He wasn't as ready for prime time as he is now. One thing the Bruins had going for them was the home ice advantage in Game 6. I've felt all along that the Canucks should have played Schneider and kept Luongo for Game 7 back at home. A Game 6 loss with Schneider in the net could have been rationalized on so many levels. Instead, Luongo went in and had his confidence undermined along with the team's. They played Game 7 hoping for a different result rather than expecting it. It was too late to make the switch that could have saved the series. The switch to Schneider in Game 3 this year was an attempt to avert the same problem. If nothing else, their confidence in Schneider was much more defined than it was last Spring.

    Last year's final had two defining moments in my opinion. The Rome hit on Horton was the biggie and the decision to play Luongo in Game 6 would come close as well.
     
  37. Die-hard

    Die-hard MVP

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    Re: Are the Leafs closer to being good than we thought?

    I don't want Gardiner myself - I watched a lot of Leaf games last year and I don't see what all the hype is about. Janus above tried to compare him to Doughty and Karlsson, or just a cut below - I don't think he's even in that conversation.

    As far as I'm concerned the Leafs can keep Gardiner, it's not that I don't think he's a good young player, but he's not the star that Leaf fans seem to be making him out to be.
     
  38. Die-hard

    Die-hard MVP

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    Re: My Question Would Be WHY Would You Want Luongo?

    But if Thomas takes the year off, the Bruins are stuck with his $5 million cap hit for a guy who isn't playing for them. He signed that deal when he was over 35 so no matter what they are stuck with it, unless they can trade him somehow.

    I like Rask as a goalie too and I think he's ready to play - the B's don't need Thomas anymore and that's why they're trying to dump him.

    As for Thomas versus Luongo - I'd like to see what Thomas does in a hockey market like Vancouver. Say what you will about Boston being a 'hockey market' - it's not close to as big a hockey market as Vancouver is. Not even in the ballpark - in Boston there are the Red Sox as #1, the Pats and Celts as #2/#2a, and then the Bruins. In Vancouver the spotlight, especially on goalies, is massive. There's no market in the NHL that is as rough on their goalies as Vancouver is. Luongo has shown that and I hope Schneider won't, but who knows.
     
  39. maineblackbear

    maineblackbear 1st Team All-Star

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    Re: My Question Would Be WHY Would You Want Luongo?

    He IS better than Luongo. He is mentally tougher than Luongo.

    He is also a first class idiot. I think he has proven to most everyone that he is absolutely one of the very best in the game.

    Later
     
  40. maineblackbear

    maineblackbear 1st Team All-Star

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    Re: My Question Would Be WHY Would You Want Luongo?

    Boston and New York are the single most massive markets in the US. Theyu are the single toughest markets to play in.

    If you are even insinuating that Boston is the least bit easy to play in...you know NOTHING about this market.

    Players in EVERY SPORT are inundated by media 24/7.

    Boston media and some Bruin players actually though that the media coverage in Vancouver was "light" as comapred to what they faced in Boston in a day in day out basis.

    Later

    Vancouver is NOT a tougher market to play in than Boston. The ONLY places in sport in North America that compare to Boston in terms of media coverage and the DEMAND to win and how yo win are New York and possibly Toronto for hockey.

    Later
     
  41. Die-hard

    Die-hard MVP

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    Re: My Question Would Be WHY Would You Want Luongo?

    Ha ha - that's funny. You're saying it's harder to play in the media spotlight as a Bruin than as a Canuck? Quite simply it's not close. Tell me something Jeff - why are ratings for Canucks games close to 5 times as high as Bruins games? Why do the revenues for Vancouver easily surpass those in every US market, including New York and Boston?

    keep thinking that the media for the Bruins is bigger than that for the Canucks. Ignorance is bliss.
     
  42. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    Re: My Question Would Be WHY Would You Want Luongo?

    It's tough to play in Boston and New York too with the media, but i would not put them anywhere near Toronto and Montreal. I know for a fact that a former Leaf player had his house hit with eggs and other crap. Fans are actually crazy there and make your life miserable.

    So tough? Yes. If you suck you're going to get booed constantly every time you touch the puck. But nightmare-ish? No.
     
  43. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    Re: My Question Would Be WHY Would You Want Luongo?

    Because Canadians have nothing much to do? :p
     

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