Kesler back tomorrow

Discussion in 'Hockey Talk' started by Die-hard1, Oct 17, 2011.

  1. Die-hard1

    Die-hard1
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    Looks like Kesler's back in the lineup tomorrow, Hodgson will play RW on his line.

    The news that's just as big? Looks like Marco Sturm will be scratched for the game - can't disagree with this one, he's been as ordinary and ordinary gets for the first 5 games of the season. Hopefully this will motivate him and he'll start playing better.
     
  2. Sir Rodney

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    Tanev Demoted As Well and Playing What If

    Hi D-H,

    I find it interesting how early it is in the season for the Canucks to be shaking things up so much. I don't know if this is all the result of Kesler's return or not. I can see the demotion of Tanev being done to free up a bit of cap space but when you see the projected pairings for tomorrow's games: Bieksa with Ballard, Hamhuis with Edler and Salo with Alberts, you have to believe that they weren't happy with their defensive zone coverage. I don't mind these pairings at all. Salo in particular has shown he still has a lot of game left in him and by pairing him with Alberts, a lot of the crash/bash responsibilities get taken off his wonky whatevers. To actually see Ballard projected to be in the top pairing is a 180 degree turn around from last year. I reallllllly hope it works out for him.

    The upcoming second line combination of Kesler-Hodgson-Higgins is probably as good a combination as we can put out there barring Eklund's 4+ Star Prognostications.

    Just for the fun of it (no Mick you don't need to jump in and state the obvious that Eklund is just being Eklund and that there's no way the supposed acquisition of Turris is going to happen), what kind of package would you envision the Canucks putting together to get that deal done. I would assume Hodgson would be the first name on the list. The Coyotes would want a centre back to replace Turris and it would meet the youth for youth criterion. The Coyotes desperately need an improvement in net so Schneider's name would be the second name on the list. Adding fuel to the reasoning behind Tanev being demoted, he could well be the young defensive prospect that might be more than enough. Obviously, the Canucks would like to get Turris for less but I doubt they would be the only team kicking Phoenix's tires. What this package does effectively is remove the Canucks' top bargaining chips in one fell swoop. Turris on the second line would be a definite upgrade on Hodgson. Schneider, much as we might love him is not going to be promoted to the number one goal tending job over Luongo and Tanev could well be deemed replaceable as well. Three very good players for the second line centre that could well put the Canucks over the top.

    Would you make that deal? I would be interested in what package you would put together (hey gang - why not jump in with the package you would offer, again realizing full well it isn't likely to happen).
     
  3. rikster

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    Re: Tanev Demoted As Well and Playing What If

    Hi guys

    Regarding Sturm, new team and new system and rehab from major surgery does not lend itself to a fast start so I wouldn't be too quick to judge ...

    Regarding the Turris rumour, how can a team in bankruptcy losing millions of dollars a month ice a $50 million dollar payroll? Is it a matter that they can't reach an agreement on the dollars or that they can't afford to pay the dollars they could agree on?

    If there was a team screaming for moneyball management, it would be the Coyotes...

    No way does Ballard get sent to Phoenix, his cap hit is too high...

    Not sure what Phoenix would be looking for from the Canucks, their system is deepest on the blue line as is the Nucks so you would think the two teams don't make good trading partners...

    If the Coyotes and the Nucks are an E 4 as reported by Eklund, then I would think the Canucks are working on a contract and won't pull the trigger until its in place...

    My guess is the Turris deal would be a multiple player deal with two of the Canucks best prospects not named Jensen and a high pick, say a second, for Turris and a later pick, say a third or fourth...

    I don't think Turris is a the kind of prospect they need, I'd rather see another Jensen type of prospect and would take Hodgson over Turris because I think Hodgson can become a better winger than Turris can...

    A team with Sedin and Kesler and Maholtra and Lapierre does not need another skilled centre...

    Speaking of Lapierre, the more I watch him play the more I like him....

    Take care...
     
  4. Die-hard

    Die-hard
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    Re: Tanev Demoted As Well and Playing What If

    Hey guys,

    Personally I don't want Turris at anywhere near the prices you both have mentioned (Hodgson, Schneider and Tanev). I think that's massive overpayment for a guy who has proven only slightly more than Hodgson has, is a year older and supposedly wants $3 to $4 million a season.

    I think Schneider and a pick would get it done, judging by the recent Varlamov deal, to be honest. Goalie is also one of the biggest needs for the Yotes - if not the biggest - and Schneider one of the best young goalies in the league. He's also the most expendable given Lu and Lack, but Gillis knows there are a lot of teams that need goalies right now.

    Turris is not doing himself any favours with his demands, and I just don't think he fills a need for Vancouver. He's a soft, skilled center who is nowhere near strong enough yet - not what a skill team needs when given their current personnel. I love the fact he's a local boy, but you can say the same for a ton of good players in today's NHL.

    On the 2nd line center topic - don't the Canucks already have one of, if not the best 2nd line center in the league? Judging by production last year they do, and it's not even close. I think the team needs a big winger much more than another center.

    On to the D - I'm guessing AV is just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks with these new pairings. He has always been a coach who likes to tinker, and quite honestly the D to a man have not been playing as well as they should. Maybe he's hoping this will change that.
     
  5. Sir Rodney

    Sir Rodney
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    Re: Tanev Demoted As Well and Playing What If

    I think we all agree that this isn't going to happen. I put out the inflated package on purpose as it's a deal that should never and would never be made. This is just having some fun with the Eklund 4+ rumor. He even added to it today saying:

    Canucks and Turris "closer still..." Ok I am not saying a deal is done, or even going to say we know a deal will get done, but the more folks I talk the more I feel confident that this rumor is well beyond your typical "I heard from so and so " rumor. Plenty of fire with this smoke.

    If nothing else, it gets the juice flowing. Beats the heck out of beating on Hordichuk. Maybe not.
     
  6. rikster

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    Re: Tanev Demoted As Well and Playing What If

    Hey DieHard, if the Nucks were to deal Schneider, I'd think it would be for a winger with size and grit and not for a skilled centre...

    The prospects I had in mind were more along the lines of a Rodin or Schroeder...

    Regarding Tanev being sent down, I thought Sulzer had a good camp while Tanev has struggled so no surprise to see him demoted...

    Take care...
     
  7. m_peroni

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    I don't understand why people are still touting Turris. The guy is a 3rd liner and will not go anywhere in his career. Also, i think Maloney will punish him by letting him sit out the year. It is unheard of that a young guy who has put up such low point numbers wants that much salary. I wouldn't trade a 7th rounder for this idiot.

    I am also in disagreement with Sturm. He needs some time to adjust and get back in full game shape; however, i did say from the beginning that he is an aging forward and will not provide the kind of scoring you would hope from him.
     
  8. Die-hard1

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    Re: Tanev Demoted As Well and Playing What If

    Agreed Rikster - the Nucks are very deep at center, the need is for a top 6 winger. Even a solid 3rd line guy with size would be welcome - hopefully a guy with some brains this time, don't need another rockhead like Torres running around.

    Turris is a very godo prospect - but he's no better a prospect than Hodgson is. Both have their warts, and both are still developing. I'd rather keep what you know than trade for somebody who may have been developed badly.

    Tanev will be back - he had a couple of lacklustre games (at least by his standards) and the Nucks have very good depth on D, so he went down. He's also able to pass through waivers and none of the other guys were. When Rome comes back it will be more difficult, though maybe a guy like Ebbett goes down.

    Peroni - on Sturm I agree with you - he's likely not going to be a top 6 guy anymore but he may be a 3rd line guy, if they can get him turned around. It's not that he's been awful, he just hasn't done anything to distinguish himself. The nice thing about AV is that, if you work hard and have the right attitude, you're likely going to get another chance in the near future.
     
  9. m_peroni

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    Re: Tanev Demoted As Well and Playing What If

    I am in disbelief that the Rangers won that game. The third period was much better, but the first 40 was brutal and Lundqvist proved once again why he is a top of the league goaltender. He was just amazing.

    The Rangers AHL defense was brutal, but so was their transition game, the penalties, and the forechecking resulted in no offense.

    Lucky? Yes. But, Henrik deserved the win, and the shutout.

    Luongo could not have done that much on those goals, i think. They kinda took him by surprise.

    The Nucks PP had no excuse, though. I understand Lundqvist was amazing, but that many PP chances should get you a goal with that kind of offense.

    Kesler had an amazing game, Hodgson seemed a bit out of place on the wing. It could take some adjusting, but he has to keep up with Kesler's speed, and quick thinking. This is one amazing trait that Kesler has on the ice, quick thinking. You can tell that at times he is mentally ahead of others.

    Nucks are suffering their usual October. Luongo is in his usual October slump.

    I say by mid November, the Nucks will win five straight, and climb their way up easily.
     
  10. rikster

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    Re: Tanev Demoted As Well and Playing What If

    I thought the Rangers played a solid road game...

    Sure the Canucks owned the play and outshot them, but because the Rangers bring all 5 skaters back below the circles the Canucks didn't get that many clear looks at Lundqvist ...

    I thought Kesler at times tried to do too much and was selfish and gave up too many opportunities to use Higgins and Hodgson...

    And I didn't think it was very smart on AV's part to put Kesler on the ice at the end of a 4 - 0 game...

    Teams often outplay their opposition and aren't rewarded when working out of a slump which I think was the case last night...

    Take care...
     
  11. Sir Rodney

    Sir Rodney
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    Fragility Thou Art The Canucks

    Hi Mick,

    If ever there was a team positioned to lose last night it was the Rangers. A team that hasn't played their first home game of the season as yet, coming well out of their time zone to play a team they haven't beaten out here since, I don't know, '94, to come up against a team emotionally charged by the tribute to Rick Rypien as well as getting their inspirational leader back sooner than expected, that should have been a relatively easy win for the home town squad. For two periods, it looked like it was going to play out that way. The Canucks had several power play opportunities but the combination of blocked shots and Lundquist filling the bottom half of the net frustrated the hell out of them. The crowd reaction was positive despite the lack of scoring. Like me, they just felt that it was a matter of time before one went in and then a tired team would crumble like a proverbial house of cards. Happened that way all right but someone must have switched decks between the second and third periods.

    When Luongo let that first goal go in, the air came out of the building. I had a bad feeling and cheated. I was watching the game on my PVR so I went on line and checked the score. When I saw that it was 4-0 Rangers, I wasn't surprised. It was only a question of what led them to that disaster. It was like I was watching an episode of the X-Files or Fringe. All the Canucks suddenly developed skin lesions and forgot how to play hockey. They didn't hit anymore, they stopped applying any form of defensive zone coverage and the brain farts could be heard loud and clear coming through over the noise of one very disenchanted crowd.

    Comparing the two goal tenders in particular, Lundquist pulled out a win for his team stopping all 40 shots directed his way. Luongo didn't. Whether the shots were stoppable or not is debatable. The bottom line is that he didn't make a key stop that would have re-ignited his team. We can debate the October funk issue here from a rational perspective but whether we agree with it or not, the Canucks have demonstrated once again that they are an extremely fragile team with Luongo in the net. The Bronx cheers Luongo got in the third are indicative to me that a goalie controversy in Vancouver isn't going to go away any time soon.

    The crowd in Vancouver is fickle. Win and we love you. Come up short in Game 7 of the Stanley Cup Final and we need to fire or trade someone. That proves to me that a lot of morons can afford the price of a ticket. Will they be given the time they need to work this out? A good place to look will be the starting roster for Thursday's game. If the brass feel the loss wasn't Luongo's fault, they have to put him back in the net. If they even partially buy in to the crowd displeasure, Schneider starts. T'will be interesting to see how they spin this.

    Take care.
     
  12. Die-hard1

    Die-hard1
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    Re: Fragility Thou Art The Canucks

    Hi Sir,

    Vancouver fans have become spoiled little brats - most of the new ones are in their late teens and early 20's, so they weren't around for the lean times. As such, they complain about who is the 4th line RW more than they worry about how the team is doing overall, and they have been spoiled with division winner after division winner.

    I've grown tired of it - they expect the team to be perfect every night, and if they play a game like they did last night where they are so dominant for 45 minutes but then let in a goal it's a huge deal.

    Regardless, it's a loss but the Nucks played very well for the first 2 periods. Luongo wasn't great, but aside from the first goal he had absolutely no chance on any of them. The first one was a bad rebound - but it's still not worth giving him the Bronx cheer.

    The team is fine from a physical standpoint, they are just a bit soft mentally right now. They have too much talent and too many leaders for this to continue - they'll be fine.
     
  13. m_peroni

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    Re: Fragility Thou Art The Canucks

    Even though they are are contrasting, i like both opinions from you and Sir's. It's like a Twilight Zone because even not being a Nucks fan, i feel as if it is just a typical October slump, and that they will catch up with the top seeds by mid November. Yet, i also acknowledge, like Sir, that something is not right with this team. How could they go through such a meltdown in a special home game? Is Luongo really good for this team, or is he worth trading?

    These feelings are existent at the same time and it is confusing. I guess you can summarize it in one word. UNCERTAINTY.

    I know Luongo well enough since his Panthers days. Although i think his character is dubious, his skills are indisputable. He is a top goalie in this league. I'd like to think that this Nucks team may not be as good as it was last season, but it carries more experience and hopefully a higher level of maturity.

    We'll see how the next ten games go.
     
  14. Sir Rodney

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    Re: Fragility Thou Art The Canucks

    Hi Mick,

    This is a tough one for both Luongo and the Canucks to work their way through. On the one hand, you have the Canucks players saying the right thing in support of their embattled goal tender but that's to be expected. I would give that far more credence if they reflected that with their play. In fact, their meltdown last night suggests something quite different. I suggest there's far less confidence in him than they are prepared to say on record. How a team could play that badly after one bad goal is cause for concern. When Schneider let in a couple of softies the other night, they bore down to salvage the situation. That didn't happen last night. In fact the opposite happened.

    As far as getting out of this situation, there are really only two positive outcomes. On the one hand, Luongo plays much better and wins over both his team and the fans. On the other, Luongo recognizes that this is the last place he wants to be and approaches the team requesting a trade. Under that second scenario, that's the only way I could see him being moved. The out clause for either side doesn't kick in until after year five of the contract and Gillis has gone on record as saying he would never approach a player to waive his no trade/no movement clause. Theoretically, Luongo doesn't have that right either but if it came down to that, I can't see Gillis standing in his way. So many nay sayers have indicated that Luongo would be impossible to trade with his contract being as long and as expensive as it is but I think that ignores the reality of the current collective agreement. If a team is struggling to reach the cap floor, having a good goal tender for comparatively big bucks would be attractive in the right situation. A team meeting that kind of criteria would be in a non hockey market where Luongo could shine without the constant fan and media pressure he receives in Vancouver.

    To simply carry on and hope that he works his way through this may ultimately be the only situation for either party but man oh man, that's a powder keg waiting to be set off. Luongo has become this generation's Cloutier. He can work his way out of this. He's that good. Will he though? That's the far more critical question. The time frame where the Luo Luo chants turn to Bronx Cheers will get shorter the longer it takes him to correct the problems.

    I am going on record that this situation will be resolved one way or another by next Summer. Schneider won't be traded at or before the deadline. Luongo has this year to prove that he will be the goalie that can lead them to the Stanley Cup. If they do another quick exit and he bears a significant responsibility for that result, a year after this one won't be feasible. The fans won't tolerate that and I can't see ownership tolerating that either. Here's hoping we never reach that point of frustration.

    Take care.
     
  15. rikster

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    Re: Fragility Thou Art The Canucks

    Hi Sir

    I'm not overly worried about the Luongo contract and feel its got two parts value...Over the prime of his career he has a good cap hit which could make him attractive to a team like Tampa Bay and on the back side of his career the actual monies paid out are nominal which could make him attractive to a have not team struggling to reach the cap floor...

    Mind you, this is all subject to future CBA's...

    There seems to be a notion that Luongo plays best when the team plays a very structured game and for some reason AV teams struggle with structure in October's...

    With the team being very confident in Schneider, and with Luongo always playing the home games, makes you wonder if the simple solution would be to swap the assignments....give Schneider more of the home games and Luongo the away games until the team gets into mid season form....

    Under Ian Clarke, Luongo seemed to be able to remain square and big to the puck while under Melanson he seems to be swimming and making himself small to the second shot...

    That is something I noticed with Lundqvist the other night, his ability to remain square and big to the puck after the first save...

    I wonder if some scrutiny should be directed towards the Canucks goaltender coach and whether in season 2 Luongo is a better or worse goalie?...

    Take care...
     
  16. m_peroni

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    Re: Fragility Thou Art The Canucks

    I still believe that Luongo is having his historical October slump. I don't think he will ask for a trade unless things get really troubling and Schneider starts more games than him.

    I think Luongo will prove himself in the playoffs. He will have a good season, although not great, but in the playoffs he will come up big.

    His contract is not such an issue except for the length. I think his cap hit is very acceptable, but the length is worrisome as it is a long-term investment for certain owners.

    I also think that rikster brings up an excellent point. Maybe the goaltending coach is just not that good. Luongo's best work was with Malarchuk.

    I think we can suspend this discussion until mid November. If nothing changes by that time then it is worth making some serious points about this issue. Otherwise, i think Vancouver will be fine as will Luongo.

    His wife? Is it really true she is giving issues or are they just typical rumors? First of all, i would not blame her. It's probably quite tough to go from sunny South Florida to rainy and grey Vancouver. Yet, if she put money ahead of quality of life, she ought to shut up.
     
  17. Sir Rodney

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    Re: Fragility Thou Art The Canucks

    I can't say anything definitive about Luongo's wife. The last I heard is that she is still living in Florida but that may have changed when he got the long term contract. You see pictures of her along with the other Canuck wives but that may have been short term during the season. Most have taken a more visible role in Vancouver charities. The Sedins, for instance, have established a home in Vancouver and are very active in community work. The visit back in Sweden in the Summer and intend on returning home after their careers but they are well established locally as is Kesler and his family.

    Speaking of Kesler, have you seen any of his clothing line? I got the Off Side Lace Up Top when I was in Nanaimo last month. Great shirt.

    http://www.rk17.com/
     
  18. Die-hard1

    Die-hard1
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    Re: Fragility Thou Art The Canucks

    I haven't heard much about Lu's wife - but Vancouver has been voted in the top 3 places to live on the planet for the past 10 years in numerous polls. I'd assume eir quality of life is pretty good.

    Lu will be fine - he's not a worry for mr as a fan. He is a worry for many of the newer fans because they don't have patience. He does this every year, I'm not sure why people are surprised.

    He bounced back last night and wasn't all that bad in the Ranger game. Yes, he was second best but five Lundqvist some credit -he was outstanding.
     

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