Luongo to Columbus?

Discussion in 'Hockey Talk' started by rikster, Jun 19, 2012.

  1. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Looking over the contracts...


    Nash's contract has a cap hit of $7.8 and expires after the 2017/18 season...In that final season the actual dollars paid will be $8.2...


    Luongo's contract has a cap hit of $5.3 and some think it essentially ends after the 2017/18 season when the actual dollars paid will be $6.7 and the following season it drops to $3.4 and the season after that $3.3 and then $1.6 and then finishes with 2 more years of $1.0...


    Either Luongo retires after that 2017/18 season or his contract becomes a cap friendly contract for a cap floor team and will have much value to a low market team looking for a back up goalie to play 15 - 20 games per season...


    This year the actual dollars paid out on the contracts sees Nash being paid $1 million more than Luongo...


    Given the dire situation the Blue Jackets are in, the rumors say they are looking not just for a home run but more like a grand slam in their dealings for Nash...


    Whatever the return, chances that they can land an elite goaltender are likely slim to none...


    Which leads me to wonder if the Nucks and the Blue Jackets would make good trade partners with a deal around Nash and Luongo?....


    If so, I would think the Nucks would look to flip Nash for a return along the lines of the offer the Rangers made at the trade deadline and would likely have to take back the Mason contract ...


    Don't think Luongo would approve a deal to Columbus, so even though it makes some sense can't see it happening...


    Would Ottawa really give Karlsson a multi year deal at $6 per?... If so, then it seems like another big contractual mistake made by the Sens organization....


    With the cap going up, would a Luongo/Schneider tandem be all that bad? Would give the Canucks the best goaltending in the league and allow some of their young guns to make the jump ....


    By comparison, the Leafs tandem of Reimer and Scrivens looks ameturish in comparision and would be why the Leafs should have no untouchables, including Gardiner....


    The Nucks interested in Jiri Hudler as a top 6 forward? I don't think so....


    Take care....
     
  2. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    I've mentioned that idea a long while back, but i still think it is doable. Why wouldn't Luongo want to go there? It's a low profile team, not much pressure, and it seems like things will turn around for Columbus at some point.

    Luongo does not have many options. His value has gone down. If he really wants to go and if the Canucks have such a deal in place then go. Tampa already has their goalie. Toronto may bite, but Burke wants to see Reimer lead the way, and i think he will. The guy has very good goaltending skills and if he stays healthy it will help. NJ is in financial troubles, so he can't be a replacement for Brodeur.

    I don't think Vancouver will go for Nash, though. Luongo is a big part of the deal, but he is aging. Vancouver would need to add a forward for their top two lines.

    I think it can be done.
     
  3. Sir Rodney

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    Hi Rikster and Mick,

    I have really mixed feelings about a Luongo/Nash swap. I get all the issues regarding the salary impact on the Cap and upsetting the players who settled for less than market value to stay in Vancouver. What I am concerned about is Gillis' preoccupation with building for the future as opposed to making the kind of move that would get them the Cup within the next two years. The current configuration relies so heavily on the Sedins and the current core and any move made now has to be designed to put them over the top. The window is closing mantra has a lot of validity. You know Gillis isn't going to find the top six forward or the top four defenseman through free agency so the only realistic option he has is through a major trade. If he can only get what we need by trading Schneider as opposed to Luongo, I say make that deal. If it's taking on the Nash contract, I am okay with that as well. Worry about how competitive we are in five years after we've won the Cup, assuming that's attainable. Gillis' tenure will be defined by what he does this year.
     
  4. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Hi guys, my thinking is the Canucks don't need to hit a grand slam with the trading of Luongo like Columbus does when they deal away Nash....

    And the Nucks probably don't want the Nash contract on their books, so if they can acquire him for Luongo then they turn around and flip him for a return less than what Columbus is holding out for...

    Still a nice return, but not the over the moon return Columbus wants...

    Take care...
     
  5. Sir Rodney

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    The money is big, granted, but my view is that he may well be worth it. He'll be 33 when that contract expires. It's not like we would be saddled with a white elephant contract tied to a 40 year old. He should be very productive right through his tenure. It's a heck of a lot easier to add the support troops than it is the key pieces. I salivate at the thought of a huge second line centre like Nash with Kesler and Higgins or Booth on the wing. That's very close to the LA model and we all know how that turned out.
     
  6. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    Absolutely it would kick ass for the Nucks. I would love to see Nash in this trade simply because it's a heck of a trade for both teams as well. It would really help out Columbus and the Canucks. Obviously the tough part is figuring out the rest of the components in this trade.

    The rumor mill keeps the Florida Panthers in the mix for Luongo. I am really doubting it. I mean, if it weren't for Markstrom then it would make sense, unless Markstrom would then be used by Tallon to grab another bigger fish. It is no secret to anyone who watched that series that if the Panthers had someone like Luongo the Devils would have been eliminated. Not to discredit Theo and Clemmer. They exceeded my expectations, but still....

    Nonetheless, i am not sure about this rumor at all and its validity. It is coming from a variety of reports since the past month or so. I wonder if i can get an opinion from the inside........i'll try.
     
  7. Sir Rodney

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    Hi Mick,

    If the comments from Nick Kypreos are correct, there are four offers on the table for Luongo. Judging by Gillis' comments following that statement, it appears that they were low ball attempts as opposed to hockey trades. Florida may have been one of those who were prepared to take on the contract while sending very little Vancouver's way. I'd be very surprised if Gillis made that kind of move. Again, going by his comments, he'd keep both rather than simply giving Luongo away. As such, I think you are correct that Florida isn't a serious player in this. Harding being extended yesterday should cause some of the fringe players to re-consider their options.Whether that would include Florida, remains to be seen. I see a lot of games of chicken being played right now. When it was first announced that Luongo was available, I commented on how I fully expected to see a lot of teams and fans downplaying what they were prepared to pay as well as a lot of Canuck fans expecting inflated returns. That's certainly been the case. However, as options have disappeared, then the time to get serious has emerged. I will be very surprised, despite the comments to the contrary, that a deal will be done this week. Could there be a surprise team coming to the front of the pack? Quite possibly. To me there are only two who really have been backed into a corner. The Leafs as Burke has to hit a home run with his goal tending and Columbus as they need to do something to save the franchise.

    Take care.
     
  8. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Hi Sir


    Gillis has 3 options to consider...


    He can trade Luongo


    He can trade Schneider


    He can trade neither


    I heard it said a week ago or so that the offers Gillis will receive for Schneider will be very significant, so who knows if Gillis is listening to hear what GM's have to offer for either of his goalies....


    From all reports, Lack is NHL ready so a Luongo / Lack duo wouldn't be a major concern, it sure beats Burkey's comments that he is comfortable with a Reimer/Scrivens duo....Some may even argue that Lack is a better goalie than either of Toronto's goalies...


    Schneider is the type of person who would accept another year of sharing games with Roberto, especially given the quality of the team so I don't see a problem there...


    Luongo and Schneider are great teamates and shouldn't be an issue if they are together again this year....


    Vancouver has the cap space to keep both on the roster this season....


    This may be a deal that is best made at the first deadline or after the all star break, so I can understand why Gillis is waiting patiently for the right deal to come along...


    Could you imagine the outroar in Toronto if they do go into the year with their current goaltending and get off to a slow start?


    Take care...
     
  9. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    Who knows about low balling offers. Maybe Gillis is also overvaluing Luongo. The fact that Schneider is about to take over the starting role means that Luongo's value decreased and his contract also decreases his value. He is no longer a young spring chicken either going on 33. Acquiring him means that he should give you four solid years and at most five. Not a whole lot of years, and he has a contract that runs to 2020? Eight more years and in each of the next six years he makes over $6.7M a season in salary.

    Gillis is saying that he'd rather keep both. I call BS on that. Why on earth would you want to keep a player that does not want to be there, making nearly $7M a year, and is not media shy in making controversial remarks? Also, he would no longer be the goalie you see starting in most games. It makes no sense, financially and managerially.

    So, Luongo said "i want to go", Gillis HAS to let him go and just to get relief from any potential off-ice issues and his contract, he should accept a decent offer at best if that is what other teams are offering.

    Luongo is kind of a hit or miss risk for the teams wanting to acquire him. If he doesn't live up to expectations, there is nothing a team can do. Once you get him, you are stuck with him. No chance you trade him twice at this point in his career.

    If i were the Panthers GM and i have interest in Luongo. My offer is this:

    Second rounder this year. Third rounder next year. Scottie Upshall. Shawn Matthias. Theodore (i re-sign Clemmensen and the Nucks get a very dependable and capable back-up). And in return, i get Luongo, Raymond, Hansen.
     
  10. Sir Rodney

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    I should clarify what I meant by low balling. Gillis indicated that there were several offers on the table for Luongo but all were of the "we'll do you a favor and take that contract off of your hands" variety. Gillis is adamant that he wants to make a hockey trade rather than a salary dump.

    I think you just did what I was referring to earlier. For a team (and I'm not suggesting Florida here) to try and get the best deal possible, it's natural to adapt a posture of why would we want him with his big contract, his lack of playoff suceess, we can do better elsewhere, yadda, yadda, yadda. The reality is that there isn't a better goal tender available right now. That's not just a Vancouver fan's perspective. All of this posturing is nothing more than haggling over the price. Is it possible that Gillis keeps both? Of course it is. He isn't desperate. Would he prefer to trade Luongo? Absolutely. Will it happen this week? I sincerely hope so but I am increasingly doubtful. Gillis was just on Team 1040 and he indicated that he thought the trade front would be rather uneventful this weekend. If anything, he expected the market to heat up later in the Summer. The main message in all of this is that Luongo does have trade value to a limited number of teams. There will be a price that will have to be paid. What that will be depends on who blinks first.
     
  11. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Assuming the CBA continues to look like it does today 6 or 7 years from today, then a team like Florida will be a good fit for a contract like Luongo's....


    They would get a legit starting goalie who can handle lots of minutes at a reasonable cap hit that takes him thru to the time when if he decides to stay in the game it will most likely be as a back up and at that time the cap hit continues but the actual dollars paid are substantially less....


    So for a cash poor team like Florida, they get value from the front of the contract and value from the back of the contract ...


    For a market like Florida, they would hope that Luongo doesn't retire once the contract is in the final 4 or 5 years because they can use the cap hit to reach the floor without having to actually write a cheque much bigger than the one you or I could write...


    Heck, Toronto is still paying $1 million per year and counting against the cap for another 2 years dating back to the Tucker buyout...


    Heck, some are saying that there will be a market for Tim Thomas if he actually retires because as a 35+ contract the cap hit doesn't come off the books if he doesn't play and some teams need his cap hit to reach the floor....


    I find it frustrating when fans and media (mostly media) go on and on about the length of the contract...As long as there continues to be a floor and markets losing money the back end of his contract will have real and substantial value....


    If you are right and the Panthers could have made the next round of the playoffs with Luongo in nets, you have to also consider how much revenues to the owners that extra round or two would have generated ....


    The problem with dealing with Florida is that I'm not sure what they have that will be attractive to Vancouver, in addition the concern for the Panthers is that unless they win the division again next season they likely don't get into the playoffs....


    I'd be interested in knowing which of the Panthers strong prospect pool they would be willing to deal away to get Luongo...


    Take care....
     
  12. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    Florida has never had an issue in reaching the cap floor.

    Anyway, i am hearing Toronto will get Luongo.
     
  13. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Getting to the floor is a requirement of every team in the league, the concern is that getting to the floor means they lose millions of dollars getting there....

    Having a $5 million dollar cap hit at a dollar out cost of $1 million has real value for teams like Florida and maybe another third to half the teams in the league..

    I'm not so sure about Toronto...

    Take care...
     
  14. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    Re: Luongo to Columbus? No more!

    Flyers traded Brobovsky to the Blue Jackets for three draft picks. As per Dreger.
     
  15. Janus

    Janus NHL

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    With Columbus aquiring Bobrovsky I think Lu to the Leafs just got more likely. And I still say it will be for less than Van fans think. IMO (stress the OPINION part) Vancouver needs to move Lu more than the Leafs need to get him. The Leafs need to get a good goalie, not necessarily the best one available. As much as people rant about making or not making the playoffs it is more about progessing along the development curve and we're not far enough along that curve to make landing Lu a necessity. As long as Burke lands an upgrade to the goaltending he'll have done enough. I think most fans want to see just what we have in Reimer and Scrivens anyway.


    In Vancouver's case I just don't see how anyone can believe having both goalies on the team is possible. No matter how mature and professional everyone involved tried to be it would still be a constant distraction and controversy, the media would ensure that. And it's clear that the market has chosen Schneider as the guy they want in the crease. I'll be shocked if Gillis allows the situation to continue further than training camp.


    Unless Florida comes into the picture with serious offer I think Burke need only wait.
     
  16. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Oh come on...


    Do you really think Columbus feels it has a true number one now?


    They just either acquired their back up or their crazy....


    Brobovsky had a .899 save percentage on the Flyers last season while Mason had a .894 on Columbus....Both contracts are up after this comming season...


    Both questionable NHL goalies...


    Doesn't change my thinking that Columbus is one of the teams in on the Luongo talk...


    Take care...
     
  17. Sir Rodney

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    Hi Janus,

    Taking the relative worth that each team is placing on what it would take to get the deal done, I think you are making some assumptions here that don't seem to hold up. As an outsider, I really find it hard to believe that there isn't tremendous pressure on Burke to make significant strides this year. Whether making the playoffs is the bench mark or not, I firmly believe that Burke is under a microscope and his extension or lack thereof relies heavily on how successful he is in obtaining the key parts that have prevented the Leafs from moving forward. He simply has to acquire a true number one goal tender and a first line centre. Since his chances of getting those pieces through free agency are virtually nonexistent and he can't afford to wait for any prospects obtained in the Draft, he has to be very active in the Trade Market. If it isn't Luongo, who fills one of those needs? I'd be really interested in why you feel most Toronto fans would be content in wanting to see what you have in Reimer and Scrivens? Hasn't their performance indicated that there is a definite need for an upgrade in that position? That's certainly the sense that I get from fan reaction or Toronto media commentary whenever the Leaf goal tending situation is discussed. I will go on record here by saying that if Burke can't improve on that tandem, he will be out of a job by next year.

    Regarding the dual goal tending option in Vancouver, I don't feel it's as bad as you make out. Luongo has played his possible departure extremely well to the point where Schneider being traded instead would be an acceptable option. There is a myth being perpetuated by the eastern media that Luongo requested a trade. That has been consistently denied by Luongo, Gillis and the Canucks. He has indicated a willingness to waive his no movement option if that helps the team (his words).

    Will a trade eventually take place between Toronto and Vancouver? Quite likely as it benefits both teams. What I don't spend much time on the dialogue that has taken place regarding price. That's a natural part of negotiation and should be viewed as such. Both teams want to make the best possible deal. When it gets done it will be at a price both can live with.

    Take care.
     
  18. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    The problem for the Leafs is that as it stands now, they have taken a step backwards from where they were at the end of last year and if they go into the new season with their current tenders they will end up adding another year on the playoff sidelines...


    Agreed that both sides need to get a deal done and whoever needs to get it done more than the other is up for debate, but I don't think anyone would debate Burkey has more to lose from a personal standpoint than does Gillis....


    As a closet Leaf fan, I am excited over the notion that Luongo starts the season in the Leafs net ...


    Regarding the media chatter that Burke and Gillis don't talk to each other and won't deal with each other, nonsense as evidenced by Pierre McGuire advising on Vancouver radio today that the two of them spent much of the plane flight from the league meetings to the draft in conversation with each other....


    Take care...
     
  19. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    Re: Oh come on...

    Scott Howson is kidding himself if he thinks he found his #1. I think the guy could not find goalie to go with. Bernier was probably too expensive. He has to trade Nash as well. Lindback was taken by Tampa. Luongo i guess did not want to go there or they did not even bother with his contract. Vokoun signed with the Penguins.

    There's nothing out there. He should have signed a solid veteran last year and he didn't. He went again with an abysmal Mason. This year, he will AGAIN...go with an abysmal Mason and a promising but questionable Brobovsky. I think Brobo is a talented goalie, he is good, and is still 23. He carries potential. But, he is not going to be the #1 guy for the long run.

    Howson has been the worst GM in this league. His asking price for Nash is a joke as well, but i think he is just bluffing.

    Luongo to Toronto seems likely, but i don't see how that helps his case either. As if Toronto is any kinder than Vancouver when a player underperforms and has high expectations?

    The guy i contacted has not gotten back to me yet. Either he is really busy with the Panthers and he hasn't been able to get back to me. Or, he can't get back to me, which could mean something is up with the Panthers possibly getting Luongo. I still think it would make little sense because of Markstrom, but Tallon succeeded in Chicago because he had one thing on his mind every year the day he was hired as GM. The Stanley Cup. If the guy thinks he can win the Cup with Luongo in a few years, he will do it and Markstrom wouldn't even cross his mind.

    I guess i respect that.

    So, i now say it comes down to Luongo going to:

    Toronto
    Florida
    Surprise team (meaning Chicago, Isle's, Colorado, NJ (though tough due to finances)

    As far as chances....

    Toronto 45%
    Florida 25%
    Other 30%
     
  20. Sir Rodney

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    As The Game Of Chicken Continues

    Hi again,

    While I still think that a Toronto trade will happen, the attractiveness of a deal with Columbus becomes that much more tenable. With teams balking at the demands of both Columbus and Vancouver (at least according to the media who keep stoking the gossip files since they've run out of things to write following the Draft), it appears to me that a trade between these two makes increasing sense. If Columbus cannot find a home for Nash (the artificial deadline of July 15th seems to be the best before date), then they face a major crisis with Nash. I am getting so tired of the myth that Luongo has asked to be traded thereby implying that Vancouver would have the same issues. I firmly believe that the Canucks and Luongo could ride out the dual goal tender relationship for as long as necessary. Despite the drum that reporters like Spector keep beating, I just don't buy that Gillis is under the same pressure as Burke. Are the two of them playing chicken? Of course they are. The key difference is that Gillis has options.

    I have reached the point where I would prefer that Gillis accept a lower offer from anyone other than Toronto. We have passed the Draft so moving up to pick is no longer even worth considering. I can't see that being a deal breaker. Swapping salaries is more tenable in Vancouver as their fan support and playoff revenue allows them to spend consistently to the Cap and if the player coming in via a salary dump is good enough to help them win the Cup this year, who cares? I highly doubt that would be a sticking point for Aquilini. This gets back to Nash and the mutual benefits from a trade. They would get the goal tender they so desperately need and we would get one of the missing pieces to the puzzle. Howson is anticipating a far greater return but the word appears to be out that he is slated for a huge disappointment. I doubt a one-for-one deal would get it done but they could do the add ons after they got that key part of the agreement in place. It would be worth it to get to see Burkey doing one final harumph, whatever the price.

    http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2012/06/23/toronto_maple_leafs_vancouver_canucks_roberto_luongo_trade/
     
  21. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Re: As The Game Of Chicken Continues

    Burke very seldom makes a bad deal which is maybe why he misses out on so many major deals ...

    Sure there's risk holding out for the perfect deal for both parties, but for me the side that has to make sure this deal gets done is the Leafs because they don't look to be a playoff team once again and have very little chance with Reimer and Scrivens...

    I think Gillis stands pat now until July when he knows which of the free agents he can land and I'd think if he is able to sign any of Garrison or Schultz he can go back to Columbus with a package for Nash...I don't understand the argument that Columbus won't take the Luongo contract considering the only reason Nash is in play is because he requested a trade and the Blue Jacket save money on a Nash for Luongo deal....

    Funny how so many don't like the Luongo contract while I am more concerned with the Nash contract which is the reason I didn't think it was a good fit for him in Vancouver and why I thought the Nucks should acquire him and then flip him, but the longer this has dragged on the more I like the idea of him playing with the Sedins ....

    I wonder if something like Luongo and Booth for Nash and Mason could be the centre piece of a larger deal?

    Take care....
     
  22. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    Re: As The Game Of Chicken Continues

    Naaa, i think Columbus is not even considering Luongo. They got Brobovsky and it's going to be him and Mason.

    Howson is being a ridiculous man. He is insulting other GMs with the requests he is making in return for Nash. You know what Scotty boy? You can keep him, his large contract, keep a team of over $55M and have fun finishing at the bottom of the league.
     
  23. maineblackbear

    maineblackbear 1st Team All-Star

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    A Nash-Luongo Deals Only Benefits Vancouver


    A Nash for Luongo deal is stupid from the Blue Jacket perspective.


    It would be 110% assinine for them to trade their only real offensive threat for a goalie who has an unbattractive contract, and whom has not shown himself to be a playoff goalie.


    Is Luongo going to pitch shut outs every night? No. The Jackets will not score without Nash. And without him, name a decent forward who would ever consider that team?


    A Nash deal MUST be for 2 or 3 top prospects who are under team control for a while. They cant take on a so-so contract, nor can they afford to move him for a young player who can leave after a season or 2.


    Any Nash-Luongo deal only works for Vancouver.


    Later
     
  24. Sir Rodney

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    Re: A Nash-Luongo Deals Only Benefits Vancouver

    Hi Jeff,

    I would tend to agree with you in a wide open market situation but this doesn't appear to be the case for either team. Everything I am hearing is that Howson is finding it very difficult to get anything even remotely close to what he is asking. He simply has to get some kind of deal done before the start of training camp. Would this be his deal of choice? I think Mick is right that he is going to go with the goalies he has and take his lumps. A Luongo-Nash deal straight up benefits Vancouver but not in terms of salary. Rikster has provided an excellent analysis of why Luongo's contract is not an issue, particularly with a team wanting to reach the Cap floor. The term is a red herring as it comes off a team's books when Luongo retires. If it extends beyond the next five years, I will be very surprised.
     
  25. maineblackbear

    maineblackbear 1st Team All-Star

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    Re: As The Game Of Chicken Continues



    If I am Columbus, I do not swing this deal unless Zach Kassian and Tanev are part of the deal.


    Later
     
  26. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Re: As The Game Of Chicken Continues

    Jeff, whatever the return for Nash is not going to make it a more desirable destination for anybody who has a choice in where he plays unless they throw overpayment at players which is what they'e done in the past and which is why they are a cap ceiling team picking in a draft lottery position....

    They need to do what the Oilers have done and rebuild from scratch thru the draft...

    Unfortunately for the Blue Jackets, they aren't playing in Edmonton and can't expect fans to continue to show up at games while they spend 4 or 5 years rebuilding their team and losing games ....

    Columbus needs Luongo more than Toronto does because they need a marquee player to keep them somewhat competitive while they go thru their rebuild...A goalie can do that more than a forward can...

    Regarding Kassian or Tanev, I think they could be in play if the Canucks do well on July 1st and are the type of players I was thinking when I said a Nash/Mason for Luongo/Booth plus some other player(s) block buster deal....As it stand now, I'd be fine with Luongo/Booth/Tanev for Nash/Mason deal...

    Take care...
     
  27. MLF

    MLF ECHL

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    You mush not have seen Karlsson play. Vancouver has LESS chance of getting Nash than Toronto and there chanches are nill.
     
  28. maineblackbear

    maineblackbear 1st Team All-Star

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    Re: A Nash-Luongo Deals Only Benefits Vancouver



    Then Columbus should trade with Boston for Tim Thomas, for less money.


    That way they can go with their own young goalies, and wont have to worry about having Luongo on the books for a number of years.


    Move for Thomas....get closer to the cap for a year then decide next summer which moves you want to make.


    If they deal for Luongo, they will try to trade HIM by the deadline.


    Later
     

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