Non-Playoff Teams Thread

Discussion in 'Hockey Talk' started by m_peroni, Apr 17, 2012.

  1. m_peroni

    m_peroni
    Expand Collapse
    Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,332
    Likes Received:
    0
    I bet it will mostly be Toronto talks, but what the heck? There is so much to talk about this team this season. Same with the Canadiens and the copy cat Penguins (Oilers trying to pick up as many high draft picks as possible).
     
  2. rikster

    rikster
    Expand Collapse
    2nd Team All-Star

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2001
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    0
    1 too many?

    I wonder if the league should put a limit on how many times a team can draft number 1 by being a lousy hockey team?

    The smiles on the Oilers brass kinda bugs me, your happy because you've done a lousy job once again and you get rewarded?

    How come the Oilers haven't changed their GM who keeps icing a bad team?

    I can understand why the GM's in Toronto and Calgary to name a couple say they refuse to go down the Oilers road because if they were that bad for that long they wouldn't have a job....

    Take care...
     
  3. Sir Rodney

    Sir Rodney
    Expand Collapse
    NHL

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2001
    Messages:
    1,183
    Likes Received:
    0
    Would You Want To Go To Edmonton?

    Hi Rikster,

    I think the Pronger departure was indicative of the problem the Oilers have of attracting quality free agents. They really don't have much choice other than to build through the Draft. Unfortunately, they also have an extremely narrow window of opportunity with these top draft picks as I don't see many of them signing long term contracts after their entry level deals expire. If this team was in Toronto, for instance, they would be able to supplement these quality kids with quality veterans, assuming they were properly managed and hadn't wasted their cap space on slugs. Then, no one would be doubting the Oiler route as the correct path to a Stanley Cup. It worked for Pittsburgh, it worked for Chicago and it worked for Tampa Bay. It isn't working in Edmonton and I see that primarily as a result of geography and budget. Despite those limitations, I still see the Oilers as a team ready to take a significant leap forward this coming season.
     
  4. rikster

    rikster
    Expand Collapse
    2nd Team All-Star

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2001
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: Would You Want To Go To Edmonton?

    Hi Sir Rodney...

    I disagree because I think your argument assumes that whoever the GM is in Edmonton, the outcome would be the same...

    Understand the geographic challenges facing the Oilers, but when you look at the likes of Nashville who are a Cup contender with 3 superstars and a bunch of lessor knowns, drafting first two years in a row shouldn't have an excuse..

    Take care...
     
  5. Sir Rodney

    Sir Rodney
    Expand Collapse
    NHL

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2001
    Messages:
    1,183
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: Would You Want To Go To Edmonton?

    Given the history of the Oilers even prior to Tambellini's time as GM, I do feel that way. Aside from Ryan Smith who was trying to reignite his glory years, I can't think of any top quality free agents who chose to sign in Edmonton. The ones they do get are B Listers at best and I defy any GM to complement the young talent they've drafted that way and make a significant climb up the ladder. Edmonton will be defined by the talent they draft and that's one area I can't fault Tambellini on. They could easily have blown some of those drafts in the name of looking for a quick fix but they chose not to. Burke went the other way in Toronto and look at the mess he's created.

    I'd be very interested in the moves you feel Tambellini should have made but didn't. I firmly believe they would have been higher in the final standings than 29th this year if R-N-H hadn't been injured.

    Speaking of injuries, I see Daniel is going to play this evening as is Schneider. It really throws the cat amongst the pigeons in terms of off season goalie movement doesn't it. Raffi is in deep doo doo as he's been suspended indefinitely.
     
  6. rikster

    rikster
    Expand Collapse
    2nd Team All-Star

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2001
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: Would You Want To Go To Edmonton?

    Shhh, I was going to mention Schneider starting and the off season ramifications, but with respect to m peroni declined to do so until the Canucks are either Cup champions or officially eliminated from the post season....

    I'm not as high on the Oilers youth as most are because I think it's a) concentrated on forwards and b) its a soft group of players....

    They are burning years off their level entry contracts while the team is fighting to stay out of the bottom of the league and as you point out they have to over pay and/or still have problems attracting quality depth players ...

    Not sure how they find a group of quality blue liners to compliment their forward group...

    In hindsight it's very easy to say but what if they had gone after Hitchcock before St Louis hired him?

    He's the type of coach they need and with a coach like him I can't see them finishing in 29th place with an injured RNH or not...

    Take care....
     
  7. Sir Rodney

    Sir Rodney
    Expand Collapse
    NHL

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2001
    Messages:
    1,183
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: Would You Want To Go To Edmonton?

    Point well taken on burning the years off their contracts. If you were GM, would you trade this year's first overall pick for some quality defensive help? It would have to be for at least one defenseman and possibly a goal tender. No one is going to trade a top two defenseman for a long term project even though Yakupov is a great prospect. Do they trade down a few notches and go for the best defender in the draft? That doesn't seem like that good an idea when the top defensive prospect is only 5" 11". If I was betting on this, I say they draft Yakupov and hope this summer that they can entice a defenseman or two to sign.

    Sorry Mick, I just can't keep adding a bit of Canuck news. I don't play as nice as Rikster. ;-)

    http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=9819
     
  8. rikster

    rikster
    Expand Collapse
    2nd Team All-Star

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2001
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: Would You Want To Go To Edmonton?

    Not sure what you do...

    I think what you don't do is what Toronto just did with their coaching change...Burkey spends 4 years building a team and then decides that he wants to implement a different system and brings in a new coach...Problem is that the new coach doesn't feel he has the players to play in his system so now what does Burkey do?

    How long before he can turn over a roster that wasn't good enough to make the top 8 in the East into a roster that can win under Carlyles system?

    If nothing else, this years playoffs is telling us that if you have an elite goaltender and a very good system the competitive balance in the league gives you a chance to make a run...

    Dubnyk looked very good in the final few games and the Oilers have a decision to make as he is an RFA who shouldn't be very expensive to extend, but I wonder if the Oilers should look to deal for a Schneider type goaltender to play with Dubnyk and together grow with the team ...

    Back to the Leafs, I think they need a more established number 1 goaltender along the lines of a Luongo and the rumblings that a Schenn for Luongo deal might make sense makes some sense to me....

    Take care...
     
  9. m_peroni

    m_peroni
    Expand Collapse
    Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,332
    Likes Received:
    0
    If the Oilers cannot attract quality free agents, it does not mean that they still cannot put a good enough team on the ice to compete for a playoff spot.

    I get it, the Oilers won't land a top notch player. Pronger wanted to leave. Heatley said no. But look, who is to say that they couldn't trade for quality depth, at least?

    It seems to me that Tambellini has no plan to improve the team other than taking in the left overs of the UFA pool, and rushing prospects. They draft players and either the same year, or the next, they put them on the top two lines. Pajaarvi is a heck of a skilled player. But, rushed. Now what are they going to do with him? Is he a bust now? Do they need a coach that could turn things around for him?

    I think there should be a rule that a team cannot draft 1st overall for three consecutive years. Whoever said it is right. It irked me as well to see smiling faces on Edmonton's staff in winning the first overall. What the hell are you smiling about?

    The Oilers are trying to mimic what the Penguins did, except it will never work in Edmonton because they will never spend the money to build around their youth. If Edmonton was a playoff team and played quality hockey then i am sure free agents would be more interested in signing there. I am sure players would be more excited to be traded there.

    But, it's a team of just a bunch of youngins, weak depth, poor results....in an apparently lame town (no offense to Edmontonians).

    If the Oilers had any sense of direction and the will to actually ice a competitive team next season, they will trade the first overall pick this year. Will they? Of course not. They feed off the frenzy of showcasing the young prospects and rushing them as Oilers to sell games and merchandise. Winning? It's in the back burner.
     
  10. Sir Rodney

    Sir Rodney
    Expand Collapse
    NHL

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2001
    Messages:
    1,183
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: Would You Want To Go To Edmonton?

    I agree on the folly of changing canoes in mid stream (not your words but the analogy seems to fit the Toronto situation). Assuming that Wilson was part of the problem and not just a scapegoat, then Burke would have been far better served to have hired a new coach best suited to getting the most out of the players they had. By now being forced into a much more major remake, he has put the bull's eye on himself. To me, as a General Manager it's your job to build the kind of team you feel has the best chance of winning and then go out and hire a coaching staff that can maximize that team's potential. This doesn't appear to have been the case in Toronto at all.

    I like your Luongo/Schenn deal but I have a gut feeling that Lu will wind up in Tampa. Isn't it interesting how the media picked up on the Luongo may have played his last game in Vancouver concept yesterday? That mantra will be reinforced by Schneider's strong play in LA including that crucial penalty shot save which came at a game changing (or a series changing if you really want to get optimistic) moment. I would be shocked to see Luongo back in the net for any more games in the LA Series no matter how many games it goes (think 7 to reinforce my reputation as a bandwagon jumper - nah, not really I class myself as a desperately hopeful realist).

    WELCOME BACK DANIEL SEDIN!!!!! Not that you made a difference in that game or anything.
     
  11. m_peroni

    m_peroni
    Expand Collapse
    Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,332
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Toronto Maple Leafs

    Where to begin? I think Burke has to start making the subtractions first, something i believe that he should have done at the deadline.

    Cut ties with:

    Kulemin
    Schenn
    Komisarek
    Armstrong
    Gustavsson

    Gustavsson i know won't be re-signed, and the others? Just dump them. Who cares for what or for who, just dump them. Schenn is a 3rd pair d-man at best at this stage. I know the Toronto media thinks he is valuable enough for the Leafs to gain a starting goalie or a top six forward, but get real. The guy is no better than any solid 3rd pair d-man in the league.

    The rest, dump them.

    Now, in the free agent market it gets tricky. If the Leafs cannot land a quality goalie via trade then i'd look at Tomas Vokoun (who should have been a Leaf but JFJ decided to go with Toskala). I would discard this season with the Caps for Vokoun as the whole team was broken, i think, throughout most of the season. I think he is the perfect vet goalie you want with Reimer on board.

    For defense, go after the big fish in Suter. The Leafs need that d-man that can play tons of minutes and be relied on. I'd look at Johnny Oduya as well, and if the Panthers fail to sign Garrison, get Garrison.

    For offense, obviously you also want to go after Parise, if available, but don't go overboard with a massive contract. I don't think Toronto is a destination Parise would prefer unless the money is too good to turn down, which does not bode well. With Carlyle in, you want big bodies that skate, play tough hockey, and have a set of skills. I think Penner can find himself at home again with Carlyle. He will be a cheap buy. Jarret Stoll, perfect face off guy, excellent on the third line and on the PP. Get Greg Campbell in there too. He is a smart player and is tough for the bottom six slots. Get Dan Winnik. I like how Steve Bernier has played for the Devils as well.

    I mean, start bringing in these guys that have an attitude to their game. I honestly do not think that scoring is a huge need for the Leafs. Obviously they need that number one center, but it won't be easy to find that center either. So, you deal with what you get and build a supporting cast that will bring a positive attitude to the team on and off the ice.

    It can be done. Tallon managed to find 12 new players to bring together knowing their character. He overpaid for some. Yes. But, these guys knew how to have fun. How to bond. How to be positive and work hard to earn victories. It rubbed on the core players and it brought the team to the playoffs.

    This is what Burke has to do. He has to add heart to the Maple Leafs and people that compete. Bring the size, bring the speed, bring the toughness.

    You start with subtracting, and you start adding.
     
  12. rikster

    rikster
    Expand Collapse
    2nd Team All-Star

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2001
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    0
    Schneider...

    The thing about keeping Schneider over Luongo is that it isn't just about those two players, its also about the $2 - 3 million per season player they can bring in with the cost savings from dealing away Luongo..

    I think Luongo will end up in a more defensive system than a run and gun, at least I think that would be his preference...

    Ray Ferraro made some interesting comments about Schneider this morning and the penalty shot...

    He is such a great athlete that he can come way out of his crease and take away most of the shooters options...

    To deke around Schneider he would have to skate around him and because Schneider is such a good skater, that is very difficult to do...

    He also mentioned that he has never felt more confident about a player than he does Schneider will be a star in the league.....

    Man, I almost forgot how good the twins were together and I liked Booth on the wing...

    Take care...
     
  13. rikster

    rikster
    Expand Collapse
    2nd Team All-Star

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2001
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    0
    I wonder if the Leafs will be pressing hard to keep the ability to bury contracts in the minors in the next CBA?

    Otherwise, I'm not sure how you rid yourself of those contracts...

    Speaking of contracts, I'm very surprised that someone hasn't put up a big stink over the horrible contracts given out by Burke and his super management group...

    Is there a player on the books who is underpaid?

    I can't think of one....

    Take care...
     
  14. m_peroni

    m_peroni
    Expand Collapse
    Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,332
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: Schneider...

    No Canucks talks!!!! Well, okay...it was mostly on Schneider, but still!
     
  15. m_peroni

    m_peroni
    Expand Collapse
    Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,332
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think that is ridiculous to have teams not allowed to bury contracts in the minors. A contract is an agreement between two parties. In this case the player and the team. The current CBA has a high favorability for players who do not perform well and their contract buy-outs are still hard on the teams to do. If you take away this team option to take off the cap hit of an underachieving player by dumping him in the minors, you just give more favorability to the players.

    Let's make contracts a binding agreement. I mean, Parise can sign a 10 year deal worth $80M dollars and can put forth an abysmal effort for the next 10 years and what is the team to do? Parise is not keeping his end of the bargain, but he gets away with it. Total BS.

    If this happens, you will see teams suspending players without pay if they underperform as there would be no other way to get relief from the contract. GMs cannot get rid of this player's cap hit as he is not even playing sufficiently? Ok then. They won't pay them!

    Absolutely ridiculous. Wade Redden deserves to be in the minors, period. Scott Gomez deserves to be in the minors, period. If the next CBA says that these players' cap hits still go against the team, despite being in the minors, then the CBA would be promoting mediocrity in the NHL with players that just want the paycheck and not give a rat's ass at how well/poorly they perform.

    As for Burke and that he gave out. Well, it's free agency. Most UFA players get overpaid. I'll be the first to tell you that Fleischmann is overpaid. Worth every penny for the Panthers, though? Yes.

    Komisarek got a big contract, but he was also a stud d-man at the time and teams were going to offer just as much money anyway. Leafs badly needed D back then, and they took the risk as other teams would have.

    Connolly? Overpaid but he has such a short contract that it doesn't matter.

    Kessel has an excellent contract.

    McCarthur is a fair one too, i think.

    Armstrong, overpaid, definitely, but he's been through so many injuries that it would not be fair to judge how he did.

    That's pretty much it. I think Grabovski is also overpaid, but it was going to be a heavy loss for the Leafs if they let him walk and to replace a center for probably just about the same amount of money in the UFA pool would have been foolish.

    I'll add Schenn to that list as well, even if he is still just 21, but it was a contract based on potential, which i don't like at all (i.e Olesz).
     
  16. Sir Rodney

    Sir Rodney
    Expand Collapse
    NHL

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2001
    Messages:
    1,183
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: Schneider...

    Thorry.
     
  17. Sir Rodney

    Sir Rodney
    Expand Collapse
    NHL

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2001
    Messages:
    1,183
    Likes Received:
    0
    Edmonton Is Not A Lame Town

    They have the West Edmonton Mall and ... the east half of the West Edmonton Mall. For a while there they had a better submarine fleet than the Canadian Navy. Unfortunately, the subs have started to leak so they are being scrapped. Either that, or sold to the Canadian Navy.

    Edmonton is highly regarded by the people in Calgary. On my last trip to Alberta many of my colleagues in Calgary were telling me that Edmonton was number one. At least that is the finger gesture they use when they get just south of Red Deer.
     
  18. rikster

    rikster
    Expand Collapse
    2nd Team All-Star

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2001
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    0
    The critism Burke deserves is that in 4 years he still hasn't built the foundation of a winning team...

    No goaltending, no number 1blue liner, and no number 1 centre...

    The many moves he has made are moves that are required after he gets his foundation pieces in place...

    Kessel has been a good player for the Leafs, but why would you make him your first major move, especially considering they had to over pay to get him?

    The only reason I can see Burke still working in Toronto is the reputation he had prior to arriving in Toronto because based on his body of work since arriving in Toronto, he should be out of a job in Toronto...

    Take care...
     
  19. Shakes

    Shakes
    Expand Collapse
    MVP

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,350
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: Edmonton Is Not A Lame Town

    Out of all the Canadian cities the arena is the worst rink I have ever seen!

    Heck you cannot even go outside of the arean to a bar or anything because it is not such a nice area.

    The arena is number 1 with the middle finger as well!

    Edmonton during boom oil and gas days is a collective group of people walking around asking each other how much money they are making......Basically they ask this question because it is the only reason to live there Ha ha!
     
  20. Shakes

    Shakes
    Expand Collapse
    MVP

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,350
    Likes Received:
    0
    after the next season the Leafs have a lot of cap space. Something like 17 million coming off the books
    Armstrong,lombardi, Lupul, Mcarthur, Connolly if they buy out Komi then that is over 21 mill in cap space.

    Me I would resign Lupul and trade Mcarther this season. If I could trade Armstrong and Lombardi, and Connolly at the trade deadline I would let them go.......if I could trade them sooner so bet it.

    A good news although it sounds strange is that a lot of the cap space is being generated by contracts that are coming do by players that really are not working out anyways so it is not like they are going to miss them

    Connolly, Lombardi, Armstrong (whom I like when healthy), Komi really would not be missed by this team at all and the youngsters are already knocking the door to replace them anyways........That is about 15 million in salaries with those 4 players that can be replaced by much cheaper contracts already in the system.......
     
  21. Shakes

    Shakes
    Expand Collapse
    MVP

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,350
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think Burke has done some great things and also at the same time made some mistakes.....

    His biggest mistake is thinking early on that his team was better then it really was........Kessel deal.

    He second biggest mistake was by saying to many things to media. He in a nutshell created his own problems by opening his mouth to much. (truculence)

    His third biggest mistake or possibly his biggest mistake is that the UFA signings he has made have been some of the worst signings In the last decade by the Leafs.......

    On the trade front he has done quite well and holds a very strong record of trades.

    On the drafting front I think the team is on the right direction overall.



    So all and all Burke has not made it worse in Toronto since he took over 3.5 years ago. He has compiled a lot of raw talent through trades and through keeping drafting picks and via the college and euro signings. The overall team record may be worse but the "quality of the players" is signficantly approved.

    I would let him ride out his 5 year contract as the organization was so messed up when he took over I was not convinced any gm in the entire league could fix it in 3 years.....
     
  22. Sir Rodney

    Sir Rodney
    Expand Collapse
    NHL

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2001
    Messages:
    1,183
    Likes Received:
    0
    He made a few mistakes.

    I think the ones you listed could qualify as a bit of an understatement. That's like saying the killer chopped up the family but left the house tidy and fed the cat. It sort of gives a warm fuzzy to cat lovers everywhere.

    I am just yanking your chain Shakes. You have to keep the faith with your team and support them as they do what they can to improve. I don't know how much of a leash ownership will give Burke this coming season but the Leafs have to take advantage of that available cap space and fix some of the problems noticeably. Time has just about run out before someone else will be given the chance.
     
  23. rikster

    rikster
    Expand Collapse
    2nd Team All-Star

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2001
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Shakes

    It sounds like you are making a judgement by comparing the Leafs organization today against what it was the day he arrived?

    If so, isn't that setting the expectation bar pretty low?...

    There are so many other ways to compare, if we keep the bar pretty low what if you look at the number of wins in Burke's first 3 years against the teams below the Leafs in the Eastern conference standings the year he arrived?

    Toronto has had 102 wins

    Atlanta/Wpeg 106

    Tampa Bay 118

    NY Islanders 98

    Keep in mind that the Leafs have spent / wasted so much more money than these teams who are all have not organizations and of the 4 teams listed, which do you think has done the best job of building their team?

    I put Toronto in either last or 3rd place amongst the 4 teams listed...

    I'm not sure how you can grade trades when he hasn't made one which has had a major impact on the team...

    I very much liked the Phaneuf trade at first, and still think they won it, but when it became apparent that Phaneuf is better suited to be a number 3 or 4 and isn't a number 1, would he have been better off to deal him instead of putting the "C" on him?...

    I agree that a 3 year turnaround was tough to do, but maybe that in itself is reason to move on from Burke because if he thought he could do it, what does it say about his ability to manage an organization as complicated as the Leafs organization?

    Take care...
     

Share This Page