Perception Of Bias Explained

Discussion in 'Hockey Talk' started by Sir Rodney, Jun 19, 2011.

  1. Sir Rodney

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    I found this blog earlier this morning and decided to throw it out there for one final look at this issue. I realize that we Canuck fans have gained a reputation as being whiners on this board and that's probably because we haven't stated our case as well as this writer. I am sure Jeff and Mick won't be impressed but at least they can see our frustration expressed very articulately if nothing else. It isn't my intention to re-open the debate. We've already stated our opposing views and we don't need to re-do that. The issues from a Vancouver perspective are all here for you to accept or reject. Time to move on.

    http://vansunsportsblogs.com/2011/06/12/on-stanley-cup-final-coverage-and-bias/
     
  2. Die-hard1

    Die-hard1 6th Round Pick

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    I lived in BC for the first 18 years of my life, and I've lived in Ontario for the last 16 years.

    As one who is uniquely suited to comment on this situation (having lived ample time in both places), westerners in Canada dislike the east, but easterners dislike the west just as much. The only difference is that westerners will tell you that straight up, while easterners seem to try and hide it for some reason.

    And on that note, anybody who says the eastern (Toronto) media isn't biased against the west needs to have their head examined. There are very few media sources out here in Toronto that will say something nice about the west, just the same way western media covers the east. The sooner everybody realizes this the sooner people will understand why teams like the Canucks are right up there with the most hated teams in hockey.
     
  3. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    I get that, but this guy didn't say anything that you guys didn't. And, he was mainly accusing the media of being biased.

    He lost me when he mentioned Thomas's goals against in the Eastern Finals, comparing that to Luongo in THE Finals.

    I mean, i get what he is saying and i don't think anyone would say that there weren't any bad calls made on the Canucks. If anyone thinks so, then he/she is an idiot.

    The problem, which this guy still shows in his long piece, is the bias in favoring the Canucks themselves. It's like as if Canuckland is trying to grasp on to anything that can make them feel better out of pity, though.

    What frustrated me on here was that people filtered parts stated in posts of others, me as well, and only took the negative parts.

    When i said that was Marchand did was dirty and at least he should be fined, how was that taken? With a "just a fine?" attitude. And when i called Burrows dirty, then what did i get? "But what about what Marchand did?"

    So, it got VERY frustrating.

    During the SJ series when the Canucks received what was it... three consecutive 5 on 3s or something like that, and at the end of the game, in the thread, the officiating was ruled as biased and poor. At the end of the series when it kept going as well. Bad officiating, favored the Sharks. Yet when the total number of penalties given to each of the two teams were basically equal, as i posted, then that got ignored.

    I mean, if someone is going to defend Burrows's finger biting then i expect that someone to defend Mike Tyson for his ear biting as well. What kind of crazy mind would lead any good hockey fan to actually make an argument blaming Bergeron for a face wash that pretty much gave reason for Burrows to bite his finger? A biased mind.

    I think Jeff can back me up on this, but....i've been critical of Boston for how many years since he's been on? How i blasted Chara's hit on Pacioretty. How i destroyed Jeff's argument calling Bergeron a Mark Messier type. How the Thornton trade actually worked in favor of Boston (can't say it got them the Cup since no member of that trade is on the Cup).

    So...for anyone to say that i was favoring Boston in this Cup Final would be ridiculous. Yeah i am probably one of the last people to even like Luongo, but gee.... why would a NY sports fan (minus Jets, Isle's, Mets) ever root for Boston?

    I laughed at that assumption made on here as well. I mean, the only reason i was happy to see Boston raise the Cup was because of Thomas. He is really a good man, great role model, good family man, great teammate, and a heck of a goalie. But after that? Umm....Chara? Yeah....loved him since he was with the Isles! Who else...Horton that demanded a trade? Oh yeah. Stunt man Recchi? he was my favorite Flyer some years ago, even loved his flopping in a Carolina uni.

    So, i really did not have a bias on here. What i saw was what i saw, and the bias on here plagued this message board.

    The media was biased, ok...i can see why. But does that give any reason for Canuckland to be biased as well? Absolutely not. I can understand being passionate and angry as a fan when a bad call was made or a dirty play was made on one of your players. I've done that myself. It's an immediate reaction.

    But, when it all settles in....there should not be a continuity of it either. If there is, then the fan would just be a bias fan with no credibility.

    But yes, it's over. I wouldn't want to start this again. I am just explaining my side just as you showed this guy writing a long explanation of things. I get it, but this guy is also showing his bias as well.

    Anyway, in conclusion i can say this...

    Vancouver got lucky to even make the playoffs. Luongo is totally overrated. The Sedins are still 3rd liners. Boston should not have made the playoffs. Chara is way overrated. Julien is absolutely the worst coach.

    Rangers should have been in the finals and it was the refs fault that they never got there. Lundvist should have won the Conn Smythe in his awesome five games in the post-season. The Panthers were forced to finish in the bottom of the standings so they could draft a stud and make the playoffs next year because Booth will win the Rocket Richard.

    So there you go. I speak the truth.
     
  4. Sir Rodney

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    Dang I Knew It

    Hi Mick,

    I knew there had to be a reason the Rangers weren't in the playoffs.

    I would be interested in your opinion as to whether or not the NHL should apply the same standards for rule enforcement in the playoffs that they do during the regular season?

    Personally, I think that issue is at the heart of all of the debate that has raged here.

    Happy Fathers' Day.
     
  5. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    As the poster who did the most whining, I have moved on, but when I take a moment and reflect on the way the finals played out I still shake my head in disbelief...

    As far as a bias against Vancouver from the media, I think what is important is how do players and agents feel about playing for the organization?...

    Were the officials influenced by the media bias?...That would be a question many would like the answer to...

    Take care...
     
  6. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    Re: Dang I Knew It

    Exactly on the Rangers. Pfftt... hehe

    I am not sure about post-season versus reg-season in terms of applying standards. I mean...it depends on what the situation is. The most you can play in the playoffs is 28 games. In the season it's 82. Playoffs have endless OT hockey. Regular season has shootout. You cannot lose more than 12 games in the playoffs, not the case in the regular season.

    Also, you have two teams playing each other for at least four consecutive games. So, things can get choppy and rough....too rough. It's live or die in post-season hockey. Regular season hockey you play the same team two times in a row at most, and if you lose 12 games in a row then you can still play more than 82 games by entering the playoffs.

    It depends what the call is. If there is a minor "hook" with the player softly putting his stick on the opponent's mid section and it has no effect on the player, it gets called in the reg-season. I don't think it should be the same case in the playoffs.

    On suspensions....i'm just cruel. I think if a player injures another with an illegal action and the injured player is out for 30 games........then so be it. The guilty gets 30 games suspension. If a concussion is also the cause of the injury, then make it a $100,000 fine that goes directly to concussion research funds.

    I understand that many times players do not want to intentionally ruin another's career, but it doesn't matter. We've all done wrongs things in our lives without any ill intent, but were careless about it and deserved the consequences.

    So to me, when you see a guy skating hard in the neutral zone and is looking to control the puck, then what's the point in a high hit? This is one thing i loved about Ballard. I remember one hit he put on a Dallas guy down here in Florida....forgot who it was, but the guy had his head down, along the boards and Ballard torpedoed him. But high? No. Right to the chest. I mean, i was 13 rows from that hit and i felt it. It was a good...clean...hard hit, and no damage to the head.

    But anyway, i'm rambling here. You get my drift.
     
  7. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    I bet you are in disbelief. I mean, come on...to me this was a Vancouver win. I live in an area with lots of people from Mass. They are annoyingly arrogant, though mostly when the Red Sox win, and the Patriots.... Celtics and Bruins, they don't make much noise, but they are just an annoyance to deal with so...... i don't think i've heard the end of it from the Bruins fans down here with my 4-0 Nucks sweep Cup win. .....ugh.....

    But i don't think the players and agents care about the lack of support from the Canadian media. Nucks are a winning organization now, and i think a true hockey player would have the balls to prove the media wrong and wanting to play for the Canucks.

    Officials influenced? No way. Officials nowadays barely get recognition. I even forgot who officiated the last game. I even forget the next day when i watch a game who the ref was. Obviously if a ref gets the media attention himself, like ...who was it... Aurier and Burrows? Then yeah, you sometimes look at certain decisions he makes and you wonder "did he do that so the media won't annoy him?"

    But there is so little accountability with the refs now that the media has no effect. These guys don't even get to talk to the media pre/post games.

    Sather was right some years ago. He said that the refs should have their names stitched on their backs to raise accountability. I never understood why that was changed in the first place. Probably because they got too much attention.

    I forgot the idiot, or rather idiots, who missed the call on Colton Orr knocking down Clemmensen for the winning goal earlier in the season. It was just bad.

    So...no to refs being influenced what so ever.
     
  8. Sir Rodney

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    Re: Dang I Knew It

    Interesting example with the tickey tackey call about the mid section stick call. That's one I would like to see dropped from the automatic call list. If the refs are going to be allowed some discretion, make them call that on the basis of whether or not the player was actually impeded rather than the position of the stick. All I'm asking for is year long consistency rather than changing the quality of the playoffs. Players adapt to whatever standard is set very quickly. They just need to know what that standard is. I used to meet with the two team captains prior to the game and review how much latitude they had. If they started to cross the line too much and I had to call more penalties than I was hoping for, I'd meet with them again and warn them that if it continued, I would start adding misconducts. That kept the team penalties at the normal times but got the slow learners off the ice. The most I ever had was a single misconduct. I did the same thing for regular season games and playoffs. After a while, I'd just get a yeah Rod we know and they'd go and play. Made my life easier and it also made for some good, hard hockey.
     
  9. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Our virginity regarding corrupt officials should have been lost when we learned of the NBA scandal...

    After re reading the Campbell email conversation, it's interesting his reference to whining and how much that bothers him, and in the context of Sir Rodney's post, rightfully or wrongly the Canucks organization has been portrayed as a group of whiners and cheaters....

    This is not the first time Murphy has been in the middle of controversy with the Canucks, I'm surprised that nobody in the media mentioned the disallowed goal Daniel Sedin scored against Murphy's former team in last years playoffs...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Murphy_(ice_hockey_b._1950)#Controversies

    Regarding Murphy's character, I think back to a story an employee of mine told about an incident involving Murphy...

    My employee was a member of the big, bad, Bruins as in the New Westminster Bruins, and was drafted by the Kings were he played with Murphy...

    Murphy was a bit of a womanizer, and one time after they got home from a road trip, she confronted him about it and the discussion got very heated...

    Murphy, realizing that he had been caught and couldn't explain it away, started attacking his wife with the same accusations...He had no reason to, but under the best defense is a good offense thinking, was the best he could come up with...

    Turns out, she was carrying on an affair and broke down and admitted it to Murphys surprise...

    I was told of that story a number of years ago, and it always struck me as a real slight against the character of the man who would rather attack someone than admit a mistake...

    As was pointed out in the wikipedia reference to the Sedin non goal, the NHL should have learned from the incident and ensured that it wouldn't be again in a position where its integrity could be questioned, but chose not to....

    Transparency from the head office of the league is something everybody should want, this is not a Vancouver issue, its a league wide issue...

    Not only did the league not learn from its mistake in 2010, they went one further this year by allowing Campbell to oversea the playoffs involving his son, and then when the finals came around and they finally got it, they hand it off to the person involved in the scandal last year...

    And then horrors of horrors, when there is another incident, they go to Brian Burke for advice...

    So, when I say I shake my head thinking back, its not a slight against Boston who are a victim in this discussion as much as the Nucks are, but to the collective stupidity or arrogance of the NHL head offices....

    The league caught a massive break from the media who totally ignored the transparency issue and the incident from last years playoffs or the Augergate incident and Stephen
    Walkums involvement in it, and chose to focus all of their attention to portraying the Canucks as a group of whiners and cheaters who are dishonoring the game....

    I hope that as the dog days of summer settle in, some in the media will reflect back in a more non bias way and ask themselves if the league needs to address the issue of transparency to ensure this series of events won't happen again, and the media should question itself on how it got caught up in the riot known as degrading the character of the Canuck organization while missing the long term, meaningful story...

    Take care...

    emails that should have gotten him fired
     
  10. maineblackbear

    maineblackbear 1st Team All-Star

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    Not Going To Add Much

    I wont add much, but I will say somethings.

    1. First off, I dont agree with the comments made about Sedin by Milbury et al. However, this Vancouver Sun reporter is guilty of the same bias he is speaking out against. Nobody has called the Sedins, "Thelma and Louise" due to their failure to put up points. Those highly inappropriate names were levied due to their repeated diving. I know the reporter mentioned that, however he also tied it to Toews and Crosby. Rest assured, neither Crosby nor Toews would have allowed Brand Marchand to punch them in the mouth 7 times.

    2. As for the LaPierre is scum, while Recchi and Lucic remain gentlemen nonsense. First off, Lucic did NOT try to stick his fingers in Burrows mouth. He clearly stopped 2 inches short of it. Recchi? I cant speak for his intent. However, my SENSE is that he was retaliating for exactly what LaPierre did earlier. And whats further evidence of bias on the reporters part, is the claim that Recchi and Lucic remain gentlemen after their actions. Guess what? Claude Julien ripped them in the media...he called their behavior "classless", "disrespectful to the game and the Canucks team", "absolutely uncalled for and embarassing for our organization." The national media skewered them as well. BTW, still waiting for Alain Vigneault to call LaPierre on the carpet for his disgraceful action. Dont see that happening anytime soon.

    As I have said since day 1...it was a 2 way street. BOTH teams engaged in embarassing behavior. BOTH teams were villified by the national media.

    Later
     
  11. Die-hard1

    Die-hard1 6th Round Pick

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    Re: Not Going To Add Much

    Again, I disagree Jeff - the Bruins engaged in behaviour that injured players and the Canucks didn't (aside from the Rome hit - which he got a lengthy suspension for), the Canucks engaged in stupid behaviour like the Burrows bite, the Lapierre gesture and the Sedin diving which was called detrimental to the game - of course the Bruins dove just as much but that was never pointed out. Regardless, two very different types of behaviour.

    I'm not whining after a loss, I think the Nucks should have given back just as much as they got. The officials put the whistles away for things like slashing, spearing, elbowing, etc, and the Bruins adapted while the Nucks didn't. That lead to their injuries and the major reason they lost the series.

    IMHO, the Nucks need to get somebody other than Kesler in their top 6 who has some balls - Sammy would have pushed back as well but he wasn't there. It's the biggest reason I'm pushing for a Hartnell, Brenden Morrow type to be brought in. The team doesn't need more scoring, they would have done just fine without being injured and intimidated in the finals. They don't need more D or goaltending, again these broke down due to the absence for Hamhuis, Edler's broken hand/fingers and Ehrhoff's shoulder.

    What they do need is somebody who will pull a Marchand and go after Krejci, Recchi, Marchand et al when Marchand is pulling his crap over and over again. Unfortunately they didn't have that, and it likely cost them the cup.
     
  12. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Re: Not Going To Add Much

    Your post brought two memories back to mind...

    The first was Julien ripping into Lapierre for the taunting and claiming his team was above such a classless act and the very next game 2 of his star players copy cat Lapierre....What was more egg on the face was Julien saying his players hadn't heard his comments, so it was as much his fault as it was the players...

    Well excuse me, if your team is above such a classless act, then why would you have to tell them you told the media they would never stoop to such a thing?...

    The other was Marchands reasoning for punching Sedin ... he felt like it...
    If you ask many of the rioters after game 7, they would likely have a similar excuse for doing such a classless thing...no reason, I just felt like it...

    As I said in an earlier post, this was the year that in the minds of the media and many fans, a dive is worse than using a stick as a weapon and punching a man multiple times is deemed manly while the victim is deemed gutless....

    Take care...
     
  13. Die-hard1

    Die-hard1 6th Round Pick

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    Re: Not Going To Add Much

    Marchand is a classless player - he still talked a whole bunch of trash even after the series was over. I'm all for talking as much as you want during the series, but once it's over shut up and either win like a man or lose like a man.
     
  14. maineblackbear

    maineblackbear 1st Team All-Star

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    I Disagree That That Cost Them The Cup

    I dont buy that the failure to response cost Vancouver the Cup. Part of the reason? Yeah. But FAR from THE reason.

    Here are reasons why the lost, IMHO:

    1. Disappearing act by Daniel and Henrik Sedin.
    2. Roberto Luongo absolutely failing to deliver when his team needed it.
    3. Canucks heart could not match that of the Bruins.
    4. Injuries.
    5. Inability to respond to physical/rough/over the edge play.

    Again, just my opinion.

    Later
     
  15. maineblackbear

    maineblackbear 1st Team All-Star

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    Re: Not Going To Add Much

    Yup...it certainly DID look bad on Julien. VERY embarassing. But again, as I said in an earlier thread...still waiting to hear Vigneault tear LaPierre a new one for his antics. At least Julien ripped his players. By Vigneaults silence on the issue, can I assume that he feels it is okay to do what LaPierre did?

    As for the comment about a player who punches a man being manly and not responding being viewed as gutless...this series didnt bring on those thoughts and beliefs. This has been a belief long held in hockey....far before I was born, and through the present day.

    And as I posted after the series was over....what do you think appalled a guy like Kesler more....the punches, or the lack of response? I'll be the lack of response.

    Later
     
  16. maineblackbear

    maineblackbear 1st Team All-Star

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    Curious

    Curious as to what he has said.

    I honestly have not paid attention at all, other than to watch the Bruins parade and their wlecome in Fenway Park.

    What were the specific things he said?

    I'll be that if Marchand were a UFA right now, you would be in heaven if Vancouver signed him. 90% of the teams in the NHL would love to have that guy on their team.

    A skilled version of the classic agitator.

    Later
     
  17. Sir Rodney

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    Re: I Disagree That That Cost Them The Cup

    Hi Jeff,

    I agree that it was a combination of factors. In all fairness to the Sedins, I think it was as much the disappearance of the second line being perceived as a threat that allowed them to be shut down so effectively. In my assessment of the Canucks' top two lines, I still feel their best chance for significant improvement is going to come from bolstering the second line. The Sedins have drawn the attention of the top defensive pairing throughout the season but not every team has Andre the Giant logging key minutes every time they were in a position to provide an offensive spark. When the second line didn't draw any of that attention away from them, it didn't take long to wear the Sedins out. There were times when our most significant threat came from the third line and when that is the case, the final result was easy to predict.

    Luongo's biggest problem is that he allows certain teams or players to get into his head. It happened for two years with the Blackhawks and through the first three series, it looked like that was in his rear view mirror. The Bruins obviously watched a lot of video on the previous three Canuck/Hawk series and duplicated the strategy to perfection. The mistake I've identified which could have made a difference was playing Luongo in Game 6. He had shaken those demons in Game 5 but re-acquired them in Game 6. To expect the same result as in Game 5 was wishful thinking. That decision is on Vigneault. Strange that he hasn't been held to account for that.

    All of the above is really hair splitting. Sure those played a role in the Bruins winning but the real reason the Canucks lost is that Thomas flat out beat them by himself (with the refs' help of course - snicker). That goal tending performance was incredible and will be very difficult for a 37 year old to duplicate. When a team loses despite outshooting the opposition, there's no much point analyzing the offense - for a shot to be significant, it has to result in a goal now and then. Thomas was as much in a zone as Rory McIlroy was in the US Open. He wasn't going to lose (and as Mick would say, PERIOD!)
     
  18. maineblackbear

    maineblackbear 1st Team All-Star

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    Can't Disagree With A Single Thing

    I agree.

    I think Burrows is an acceptable 1st liner with the Sedins.

    The question is WHO to bring in on the 2nd line. What guy matches the Vancouver needs?

    Later
     
  19. Die-hard1

    Die-hard1 6th Round Pick

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    Re: Curious

    He called the Canucks cocky and classless, said that they expected to win and the Bruins showed them differently.

    I'm paraphrasing the last part, but he definitely used the works 'cocky' and 'classless'. This is after the series is over, when he's being interviewed.

    I don't want a Marchand on my team, I want honest toughness like a Lucic or a Horton, not a guy who goes after knees and tries to injure people. Good for him, he had a hell of a series and was a big reason the Bruins won, but I'll bet that's the best he plays in his career. He'll be very overrated for the next few seasons. A guy like Marchand will always get what's coming to him - just ask Claude Lemieux.
    This post was edited on 6/21 1:52 PM by Die-hard1
    This post was edited on 6/21 1:55 PM by Die-hard1
     
  20. Die-hard1

    Die-hard1 6th Round Pick

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    Re: Not Going To Add Much

    The difference is Julien opened his mouth and said his team would never, ever act classless like that - which they did the next game.

    AV didn't say anything about the acts or anything involving them, he said nothing at all. I know for a fact that Gillis told Burr and Lappierre to cut the crap, they just didn't do it publicly.

    I do agree that Daniel has to respond in some way - even to push Marchand away. He can't just sit there and keep taking punches to the face, it did make him look weak.
    This post was edited on 6/21 1:53 PM by Die-hard1
     
  21. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Re: Not Going To Add Much

    As Die-Hard said, sure AV spoke to Lapierre privately which how it's normally done...Jullien was forced to discuss it publicly because his players made him look bad ..

    Regarding Kesler, I think he is more upset with the officials than he is Sedin...He might be more upset with Gillis than he would be with Sedin for not having a deterrent to deal with a Marchand who will have his day of reckoning...

    Regarding the Sedins, I think its pretty safe to say that you wouldn't see pictures of them intoxicated and partying the way you saw Marchand and his teammates...Just the way they are...

    Take care...
     
  22. Die-hard1

    Die-hard1 6th Round Pick

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    Re: Not Going To Add Much

    I think Kesler is most upset that he couldn't do what he wanted to - you could see from the moment he got injured in the Sharks series that he just couldn't skate properly. Hip/groin problems will do that to you. Good on him for playing every single game, but it really was tough to watch him skate at half speed out there when I'm sure he knew how badly his team needed him.

    The twins will learn from this - they were nowhere near as bad as most have said. They did finish 3rd or 4th in scoring the playoffs, which is pretty good, but they also had a chance to carry the team which they didn't and couldn't do.

    I'm not sure who to bring in for the 2nd line - we'll see what Gillis does. He's a smart GM who seems to make the right moves, so I'm confident in his abilities to assess the situation and find the right players to take them over the top.
     
  23. Die-hard1

    Die-hard1 6th Round Pick

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  24. maineblackbear

    maineblackbear 1st Team All-Star

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    So...

    So now we are going to make comments regarding the Bruins celebration?

    Somehow insinuate that there is something wrong with how they celebrated? As for how the Sedins would have celebrated...I guess we will never know.

    I'm fine with how the Bruins celebrated.

    As for Marchand having his day of reckoning...I know that kid will NEVER back down. Kid wont back down from a fight. Thats why he is as good as he is. He stirs the crap and he will stick around to deal with the fall-out.

    Wish there were more like him.

    Surprised you Van fans complain about him....Burrows, LaPierre, Torres, Hansen...you guys have FOUR guys like Marchand. Biters (Burrows), taunters (LaPierre), divers (Burrows, LaPierre), cheapshot artists (Hansen). stick/elbow swingers (Torres).

    And you all have the nerve to complain about Brad Marchand, when the above 4 do the EXACT same things....just not as well?

    Nice.

    Later
     
  25. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Re: So...

    First of all, I don't drink and haven't for some time...

    The argument that Canuck players would have done the same thing so it's ok is weak, and assumes that I would approve if it was players on the team I cheer for doing it.. That's been a common excuse for you ...

    You work with kids, or you did work with kids, so I am very surprised that you condone that bar tab to get that drunk...

    You decided to attack the Sedins manhood, and felt they should have fought back...

    Should I assume that for you booze and fighting is the way to prove your manhood?..

    Maybe I'm being over sensitive from witnessing the riot in Vancouver or from burying another family member who decided to kill himself with excess drinking...

    Good interview with Sedin, and judging by his comments would have looked down on his teamates if they had spent that much money on getting drunk when the money could have been spent on something that could have been much more meaningful....

    Take care...

    Charity
     
  26. Die-hard1

    Die-hard1 6th Round Pick

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    Re: So...

    Marchand does all 4 things that the Canucks guys each do one of. So he's 4 times worse - thanks for proving my point.

    Sure would be nice if you could be classy in your posts - then again your team acted like a bunch of spoiled brats after winning the cup, so why expect more from the fans? You just showed me you're a typical Boston fan - I see them all the time in Toronto (Red Sox fans) and let me tell you, I'll take a Yankee fan over a Red Sox fan any day of the week - and I loathe the Yankees.

    Calling out the twins was a really, really low blow - congrats again on the cup win but I'm done talking about that.
    This post was edited on 6/23 2:33 PM by Die-hard1
    This post was edited on 6/23 2:37 PM by Die-hard1
     

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