Tim Thomas' Political "Gesture"

Discussion in 'Hockey Talk' started by Sir Rodney, Jan 23, 2012.

  1. Sir Rodney

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    Hi Gang,

    Sorry for not contributing much recently. I purposely avoided the Canuck/Bruin diatribe as it had been beaten to death by many far more articulate than me. That said, I couldn't believe the latest news to come out of Bruin land. First we have Ference's three-game suspension which doesn't come as much of a surprise given the reality check that team needs to take now that Campbell is no longer in the consequence dispensing business. The other is the "political stance" taken by Tim Thomas by not attending the team's meeting with President Obama. That one did take me by surprise. Personally, I don't give a crap as to what Thomas' political persuasion is, this was a team honour, meeting with the President. Thomas put his individual views on a higher plain than that of his team and I see no justification for that what-so-ever. Whether Thomas would vote for Obama or not shouldn't matter. He may want to portray this as a noble gesture but I see this as a cheap political stunt.

    From the outside looking in, this is typical of the entrenched political affiliations that seem to plague US Politics. I get that we are in the final stages of the four-year long campaign for the next Presidency and that some wouldn't change how they might vote no matter what the platform of the opposing party might be. That said, what the hell does this have to do with an election? A team based in the US won the Stanley Cup. The traditional Meet and Greet takes place and the only US born player on the team chooses not to attend because the President isn't from his party of choice.

    Grand gesture, my ass. No, I'll rephrase that - childish gesture, Thomas is an ass.
     
  2. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    I'm not a fan of the Democrats or Obama in particular and think him and his party have been a disaster for Canada and themselves, and at the same time wonder how their political system can be so messed up that a character like Gingrich can be considered a front runner of anything, so while I can understand how someone can have the convictions Thomas has towards the political system, I think its just another example of why the Bruins have gone from being the media darlings to what some sports journalists are now calling a dirty team...

    And it looks good on them...

    I think many in the media should be embarrased at how they conducted themselves during last years playoffs and how they focussed on the Canucks as a whinny bunch of divers and the Bruins a good old Canadian team of rough and tumble players playing the game the way it was meant to be played....

    Now just a few short months later that same Bruins team is being exposed for what it is...

    Take care...
     
  3. Sir Rodney

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    Hi Rikster,

    You've got to give Newt credit. He took the issue of serial adultery and turned it in to media misconduct with a self-righteous show of indignity. What got me is how quickly the morons bought in to that spin. (It's not so much that I cheated but that you asked me about it. Shame on you media - collective yeah Newt from the gathered throng.)

    I am curious as to why you feel having the Democrats in power and Obama in the White House has been a disaster for Canada?

    Sheesh, all this Canuck talk is wearing me out. ;-)
     
  4. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    I think Thomas should have gone and kept mute. I don't like it when athletes, music artists, and actors make political statements. It causes a division. It creates unneeded controversy. It isolates fans as well.

    i used to be such a Pennywise fan, and a real punk rock fan, too, and yet when that rock against Bush tour took place i felt isolated by it because at the time i was a Bush supporter.

    Still, the media is making a big fuss only for the fact that it is Obama, and it is a democrat. The media did not make such a big fuss when Richter called Bush disgusting right after 9/11 when he said Osama Bin Laden should be found dead or alive, which is what many families of the 9/11 victims wanted as well.

    When Sean Avery came out saying he was pro gay marriage (who gives a rat's ass?) he received an applause.

    Dave Hodge should be embarrassed and fired for suggesting that Thomas is a KKK supporter if you look at his kids' names.

    I don't think Thomas is an ass for exercising his freedom of choice on this matter. I disagreed with his actions, but his statement was like a message taken out of a Ron Paul rally. He criticized the judicial system as well.

    I didn't like it, and i am casting a very passionate and convinced anti-Obama vote this year, unless Ron Paul and Gingrich are the front runners then i will not vote. I am probably in line with Tim Thomas's views on this, but i think it was a good team event and he should have gone. I would have gone and kept my mouth shut.

    But i think the worse players out of all this are the media and the liberals who would probably cheer hooray had the president been a Republican and make Tim Thomas a hero for making such a brave decision. I am sure Dave Hodge would have liked it if it was the other way around.
     
  5. Sir Rodney

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    Hi Mick,

    You had me with this statement: "I think Thomas should have gone and kept mute. I don't like it when athletes, music artists, and actors make political statements. It causes a division. It creates unneeded controversy. It isolates fans as well."

    That's the heart of the matter from my perspective. This wasn't a political event. It was a traditional sporting event and should have been left as such. It was the wrong thing for Thomas to do as it took something away from his team by not being a part of the celebration.

    I disagree that this is all a result of the media having a pro Democrat bias. Have you watched Fox News? That isn't biased reporting?

    I get that you are a Republican and would like to elect a different President. You are perfectly entitled to your political views and preferences. Why not just leave it at that rather than projecting what might have happened if it had been the other way around? Wrong is wrong whatever the political affiliation.
     
  6. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Hello Sir Rodney...

    Regarding my opinions on the Democrats and Obama, I will say that I do agree with Gingrich that the media can be very bias and influencial and needs to be held accountable to a much greater degree than they currently are...

    I'm not a fan of the attacks against companies like Toyota and BP, and I'm not a fan of a government that will allow itself to be held hostage to special interest groups, especially those who hug trees for a living...

    The Buy America campaign did little other than to hurt Canadian and American companies and in the long run will hurt American companies the most and gave a reason why so many countries around the world have issues with the Americans, they can be bullies ...

    Take care...
     
  7. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    Well...it wasn't a political event, but i can understand not being comfortable around one of the most powerful men in the world and trying to keep a straight face when you despise him. Nonetheless, i would have just left it as "personal matters to attend to" if i chose not to go and not explain anything.

    And you mention Fox News later. It is and it isn't biased. It is in terms of the fact that it leans to the right. That is absolutely true, but when you have CNN leaning more towards the left. ABC as well. CBS as well. And MSNBC is pretty much Obama's media outlet. Then, you weigh the balance of media balance and it tilts to the left.

    Fox News is the only network where you will have a conservative stiff like Hannity debate politics with two, or sometimes three, liberal guests. That's what balances it. On MSNBC you had their 2010 election coverage on Congress and i believe that had Chris Matthews, Keith Olbermann, and Rachel Maddow. All three are extreme liberals that trashed the GOP candidates that won. On Fox you had Brett Beier, Juan Williams and it's usually 50/50.

    See the difference?

    The fact that you had actors, music artists, and journalists slam President Bush on a near daily basis by calling him slanderous names, or even forging documents (Dan Rather) of Bush, and they did not get criticized for it by the media tells the story. You then have Tim Thomas doing as he did, and you get the biased left demonizing him, calling him racist, and even your fellow Canadian Mr. Hodge connecting him to the KKK. It tells the story.

    Do you think Hodge would have said anything if Thomas did this to a Republican president? Of course not.

    Knowing how the leftist media, and liberals, think and how they have acted the past years that i've had to deal with them, i know how they would have reacted if it had been a Republican president in the White House.

    The difference here is that me, a Republican, said that what Thomas did was wrong. If it was the other way around, it would have been a brave act endorsed by the left.

    That's why i call them the losers of this whole ordeal. They step out of their professional line of work to slander Thomas. It's sickening.

    Did anyone up in Canada call on Hodge to apologize for basically labeling Thomas a fan of the KKK? If yes, i want to know and where i can read it. If not, then it proves my point.
     
  8. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    Gingrich can only blame his past decisions for the attacks that the liberal media place on him, so he should not be such a whiner. The guy slammed Romney's PAC ads (no candidates can contact/control their respect PAC supporters) yet his own PAC took a short film titled King of Bain which was nothing but a lie on Romney. Newt can give great soundbites, but he is as dirty as they come and i will not dirty my hands by ever voting for him.

    I am not sure where Toyota gets attacked. They build cars here in the US, so Americans don't really have it against Toyota. I dislike Toyota because i think their cars are hideous.

    BP? I dislike oil companies in general and what BP did to our Gulf of Mexico down here is unforgivable.

    The buy American campaign is both good and bad. Like you said, it backfires in those situations. But on the other hand you have products made in China that become health hazardous because they neglect safety. You have manufacturing jobs not growing, or at times declining, because you have a dirt bag like Jeff Immelt, CEO of General Electric, moving a plant from Wisconsin to China. And this is the guy that Obama assigned as "Job Creator Advisor".

    You want Made in USA to draw investments, to bring a higher monetary circulations in the US, which helps the economy. Yet, you also have the unions that are a problem in the US. And you have the price issue, which makes a domestic product more expensive than a foreign product.

    It's a delicate situation and there is both good and bad. We need to find that balance, that middle point where it's just about right.
     
  9. Die-hard

    Die-hard MVP

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    Tim Thomas is a coward, and I'm sure his team is thinking the same way. Not only did he pull this stunt, he then refused to answer any questions about it, leaving his teammates and coach in the lurch.

    I don't care if he decided not to show up, he should have the balls to get in front of the cameras and stand up for what he did. Instead he decides to cower in the corner like a scared dog and his teammates take the flack.

    Not one of his teammates has come out an endorsed what he did - not one has said 'we support Tim'. That shows a lot.

    I love the fact that this year the Bruins have taken over as the most hated team in the NHL, while the Canucks go about their business quietly and continue to win. After all the 'Canucks aare the most hated team in the NHL' garbage last year coming from Boston and Toronto, it's refreshing to see the Bruins get called out as the bunch of hypocrites they are.
     
  10. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Regarding Toyota, the Americans are dealing with their 3 bankrupt car companies, 2 filed and the 3rd is saved from filing because they were lucky enough ( or unlucky as some think ) to have borrowed as much money as they could on the eve of the financial meltdown in 2008...

    Sales of their bread and butter vehicles, large SUV's and pickups, are in the tank and nobody wants to buy their fuel effecient vehicles...

    The Government decides to bail them out and spend some $550,000 per job saved of tax payer's money to do so...

    Toyota decides to recall 4 million floor mats because they can slide under the gas pedal if not clipped properly which leads to a recall crisis in which the Secretary of Transportation advises that all Toyota customers should park their cars because they are unsafe to drive...

    Toyota is attacked from the Government and the media over something which is later found to be untrue as test after test confirm Toyota's electronics are not faulty....

    Meanwhile the Detroit built cars continue to do what they do best, fall apart with recall after recall going unnoticed by the media ...

    The maker of the sticky gas pedal which is replaced in many Toyota models is built by an American company and who sell just 3% of their products to Toyota, the balance of sales are to other car makers...

    Back to 2008, Toyota lends its idled plant workers to local municipalites to work and covers their payroll cost to do so while the American car companies have massive layoffs....

    You mention China and safety...I smiled while listening to the President talk about the quality produced by the American worker while announcing that GM is once again the number 1 car company in the world and then talking about alternative energy sources....

    What he did forget to mention that a) Toyota has sold more Prius V's in 2 months than GM has sold their Volt in an entire year and that the Volt had to be recalled because they catch on fire....Toyota, which has invested over $90 billion in their hybrid technology and who have partnered with panasonic amongst other battery makers and who could have pulled a GM and brought a product to market before they were sure it worked correctly but didn't sits back and sez we told you so...

    The amount of money the American Government have cost Toyota and its dealer groups and its workers is enormous over something that was cooked up to help its " Buy American" propoganda....

    Regarding BP, think Haliburton and understand that the greatest risk to the Gulf coast is not from an oil spill, but from the chemical waste flowing down the Mississippi from farmers and industry each and every day ...

    For the President to say and think that the way to bring off shore jobs back to America is to heavily tax those companies who pay workers off shore is silly and naive...

    What will Apple do if this becomes law? What will the American who holds shares in Apple and whose retirement portfolio is helped because of Apples strong returns want Apple to do?

    In my opinion, the Americans need either a strong majority in October or a third party....

    Shudder to think Gingrich wins the Republican ticket, but if he did I wonder is Romney stays in as an independent?..

    I don't mean this the way it sounds, but they almost need a dictator in the sense that they need a party which will do what is needed to get the country back on track regardless of public opinion because as it stand now actions are taken for voting purposes only....

    Take care...
     
  11. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    Marchand actually came out saying that they expected him not to go for quite a while and that they are still like a big family and nothing changes.

    He stated his reasons precisely addressing the nation as a whole, even the judicial system. That does not make him a coward.

    You just sound like a sour grape still bitter about last year. Let it go.... it didn't take you that long after '94, did you?
     
  12. Sir Rodney

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    One Big Family Who Have A Few Issues

    Not everyone on the Bruins is happy. Maybe the nothing changes part is true. Some didn't like him before and they don't like him now.

    Of course, that could just be the biased left wing media. ;-)

    I have enjoyed the debate that this issue has created. We've been pretty dead here for quite some time. We agree on some points and won't budge off of others. It's been informative at the very least.

    I owe you an apology for doubting your faith in the Canucks early on. Things are settling in quite nicely now. It will be very interesting to see what final tweaking Gillis does to the roster next month. I don't expect anything earth shaking but the consensus in the west is that he will be adding some depth on defense as opposed to adding that "toughness" that we were lacking in the finals last year. T'will be interesting.

    Take care.

    http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2012/01/25/thomas_selfish/
     
  13. Die-hard

    Die-hard MVP

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    I'm sorry - what the hell are you on about?

    Thomas is a coward because he left his team and coach to speak with the media after releasing his statement - that's it, that's all. He refused to comment, leaving everyone else to do so. I know I'd be pissed if I had a teammate who left me hanging in the wind like this, and the Bruins definitely were. One even called Thomas a f*cking selfish p*ick.

    This has nothing to do with hockey.

    As for your sour grapes comment - grow up. If you want to start personal attacks like that go elsewhere.
    This post was edited on 1/30 12:58 PM by Die-hard
     
  14. Die-hard

    Die-hard MVP

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    Hey Rikster,

    Never mind that fact that we get told to 'buy domestic' here in Canada all the time - makes zero sense when you consider that there are no domestic car makers - and that Toyota and Honda are actually the two car companies who make more vehicles in Canada that anybody else!

    The US has lots of financial problems to figure out but they'll get it straightened out. Their economy is set up to thrive on greed (and I don't mean that in a bad way) which is the best way to ensure financial success year after year.
     
  15. Die-hard

    Die-hard MVP

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    Re: One Big Family Who Have A Few Issues

    Hi Sir,

    I can't take too much credit for the Nucks turning it around, I'm just a very patient person who does that with almost everything. A lot of times it's a detriment, this time it happened to work out. I'll be wrong again very soon I'm sure.

    On the subject of what the Canucks need to add - I'm not sure they really need to add anything. Do you add another dman when you already have 8, and a couple of guys who can cover for injuries? I'd almost rather see Tanev play if/when Sami gets injured than trade for another guy who is just an insurance policy.

    What I would like to see, however, is some more experience and grit on the 3rd and 4th lines. I like guys like Weise and Raymond there but I'd like to see some competition brought in and somebody who has been there before. There are lots of guys like that around the league who can be had for picks and/or prospects, so I'd like to see Gillis do that instead of trading a big piece of the team.

    We'll see - still have a few weeks before the deadline and almost anything can happen. The team's performance over the next couple of weeks will dictate a lot.
     
  16. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    They did not have to comment at all. They chose to comment. Who called him a selfish prick from the Bruins?

    I think the fact that Canadians are nearly making a bigger deal about this is quite laughable. Who cares? He didn't want to go. He didn't have to go. He stated his reasons. That's the end. You are the one making harsh attacks on a player as if you have been offended personally. I just think you sound like a fan who still hates the Bruins so much and is fueled by this story. That's not an attack on you.
     
  17. Die-hard

    Die-hard MVP

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    Great - now you're going after Canadians as a whole - imagine if I was doing the same about Americans? You'd be going ballistic.

    And of course Canadians are taking this more personally - they run the hockey world after all. Without us you Americans wouldn't have a league - did you know more than 40% of league revenues come from the 7 Canadian teams? Americans wouldn't even know, or care, who Tim Thomas is.

    I do hate the Bruins - I've made no bones about that. Quite simply, that has nothing to do with politics which is what this is about. Tim Thomas hung his team out to dry - and you're not getting my point. It's not whether or not he went or didn't - I don't care about that at all. It's that he refused to answer any questions about it afterwards, while his team and coach had to. Do you think any of them wanted to talk about Tim Thomas' political views? They would probably all rather get root canals done. But there they were - manning up and answering questions while the coward (and yes that's the right word) was in the dressing room refusing to say anything. He started it, then decided to disappear.

    Do you get my point now? It's not about hockey, it's not about whether he went or not - it's that he refused to stand up for it afterwards. That mt friend is the very definition of a coward.
     
  18. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Hi Die Hard

    I think we are all greedy given a chance, but if my kids are a good indication then what we are suffering from is the "entitlement generation"...

    I wonder if the American's or for that matter us Canadians have the stomach to get it straightened out...

    For example, with all of the discussion on Obama Care and the financial drain health care has on the economy, does anybody have the strenght to pull a Jimmy Carter and tell the American people to stop eating? Obesity is a growing crisis and the financial cost it puts on the system is enormous....

    To bring it up and propose ways to deal with it would be political suiside which is why it will continue to be ignored by politicians...

    Thinking about cars and alternitive energy again, I remember reading a report a few years ago when prices at the gas pumps reached $1.50 a litre...

    A taxi company in Vancouver had 250 cars in its fleet, 150 of which were Toyota Prius and the rest were either Toyota Camry hybrids or Toyota Corolla's...

    It was saving over $2 million dollars in fuel costs using its hybrid vehicles as compared to its former gas vehicles while at the same time saving another quarter of a million dollars in maintenance costs, the biggest savings from reducing the number of brake jobs by 1/5th....

    The report suggested that if all taxi's in North America were converted to hybrid vehicles like the Prius, over a 10 year period there would be over $50 Billion saved in fuel costs alone...It went on to discuss the cost savings the Ontario Health Care system would achieve because with cleaner air comes a reduction in quality of air illness and death...

    Makes you wonder why President Obama didn't provide "bail out" monies to the car companies who are profitable while at the same time building cars that can save the country billions and trillions of dollars in fuel costs and reduce its dependency on foreign oil....

    Reason might be that for all of the wars being fought over seas and lives being lost and the financial burden of it all, the most popular car in the US is the Ford F 150 pickup....Not the most fuel efficient vehicle to drive....

    When the person tooting his horn that he is the most conservitive candidate of the conservitive party wants to build colonies on the moon over the next 8 years, then as they say, Houston we have a problem....

    Take care...
     
  19. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    If Americans made such a big deal about say....Bieksa, not going to Harper then i would be very concerned with the stupidity involved while we have so many of our own issues to deal with here at home regarding politics, economy, and even sports.

    And you say without "us" the US wouldn't have a league. Let me tell you something. If it wasn't for the US, Bettman, and the NHL, in approving equalization of currencies, you wouldn't even have Canucks, Oilers, and Flames hockey by now.



    But, let's talk seriously. The US can easily survive with its seven top teams.

    The total value of the top 7 US teams (courtesy of Forbes) is $2.260MM. The total value of Canada's 7 teams is $2.063MM. So, these US teams are just about $200M more valuable.

    In terms of revenue, the total for those US teams is $861M. The total of those Canadian teams is $876M. Not a HUGE difference.

    So, even if the US had a 7 league system in place, it would do just fine. The expansion teams are a growing process. They fail or succeed. It happened in Canada as well, did it not? What if Balsillie and RIM actually did get that one US team and moved it to Canada? As far as i know, RIM appears to be gown down the tubes and Canada would have had to put a Canadian team up for sale.

    Obviously the US hockey market will never be as big as the Canadian hockey market. The US has other top sports that compete with. Canada really just has hockey in which probably leads by miles and miles ahead of the second biggest pro sports league in Canada.

    I don't think Canadian hockey players complain at all about the US hockey market. They provide salaries as well. Young Canadians come to college in the US for education and a scholarship, and they can get drafted.

    And going back to Thomas. Why create a bigger distraction by having the media shoving mics to his face throughout the whole season and making the situation about him, not the Bruins? Why create more anger among those who actually get offended more than Obama (who probably didn't even care)?

    He did the right thing to not allow reporters to continue to ask the question and journalists begging for interviews and being there during practices.

    Look at the results. This is an old story now. People have moved on. If Thomas was open to keep the discussion open to defend his case, this story would have been a distraction for the All-Star game, and a continuous distraction throughout the season and playoffs.

    A coward? No.
    This post was edited on 1/31 10:52 PM by m_peroni
     
  20. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    My dad is a practicing doctor down here and his Canadian patients can't seem to stop bashing about the universal healthcare system in Canada. I don't believe it is a BAD system. It has its pros and cons, but it is definitely flawed and i don't think, as does my father, it provides the best healthcare service as it could.

    Also, you are talking about a Canadian population that is the fraction of that in the US. The smaller the population, the better socialism works (see Norway). The higher the population, the worse socialism is (see most of Europe).

    Obesity in the US is a problem, but if you are going to accept government controlling what you eat then you may as well burn the Declaration of Independence. If government controls obesity to control healthcare costs, what is next? Control smoking. What is next? Control alcohol. What is next? Control sports and injuries. And so on.

    Government is a bacteria. The more it feeds the more it lives and to live more it needs to feed more, thus expanding and spreading.

    In terms of cars. Hybrids are not cheap. If the battery needs to be replaced, it gets very expensive. If you buy a low cost fuel efficient vehicle (which would probably still look better than any hybrid) then the amount of money you spend on gas would take probably five to eight years to reach the same cost of a hybrid, which is more expensive anyway.

    I have a Fiat 500. It is an excellent gas consuming vehicle. I did not pay more than $18k. It is a dream to drive, a lot of fun, and it is a classic. Unfortunately in the US we won't get the TwinAir engine, which is even more fuel efficient. Why would i want to pay $5k more or so on an ugly Prius and if the battery breaks down that would be thousands of dollars more. It is hideous, not a fun drive either.

    Hybrid cars are a deterrent to gas consumption, but not the solution. The fact is that the world runs on gas. The infrastructure of governments would take years to change in using hybrid vehicles.

    People care about their cars and what they drive. The fact is that hybrid cars are....well....f-ugly, and dull.

    The solution, right now, is to work on creating engines like the TwinAir. Make them fuel efficient, yet still giving very good performance. The Ford V6 used on the Mustang and the Taurus (which beats the Audi in 0 to 60) is an excellent fuel efficient car for the kind of performance that it returns.

    The reason why the F-150 is the most popular is due to its usage in the workforce, not because most people love it as a family daily driver. I am sure in Texas that would be the case, but not all across the nation.

    I think we should drill. Create more pipelines and safer ways to transport oil on our side of the hemisphere. Hopefully we will see Venezuela overthrow Chavez and have a change in government that likes to free trade with North America, like Colombia.

    I think that those factors will decrease the price of gas. The unfortunate thing is that the current president of the US panders to environmentalists, does not want to drill, doesn't want the pipeline despite the fact that it creates jobs and it lessens our involved with Mid-East oil, and has completely ignored the South American countries that are welcoming Islamic extremists with open arms and not collaborating with the US on oil.

    And Man on the Moon Newt............ SUCK IT! Romney kicked your fat ass in Florida!
     
  21. Die-hard

    Die-hard MVP

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    Sorry Peroni - you're dead wrong, the Canucks have never been even close to moving. Check your facts there. And quite simply, good luck to the US NHL teams without Canada. You guys have always been the bully financially to the rest of the world, and quite simply it looks good on you to eat some crow for a while. Don't worry, it won't last - the US economy will be back to it's former glory soon enough.

    The beautiful thing about Forbes is they are just guessing on revenues. All the Canadian teams have private ownership so they have no idea what their revenues are - for example the Canucks made over $60 million in profit (not revenue, profit) last season with the cup run. Where's the Forbes calculation for that?

    As for Balsillie - most of his money is not in RIM anymore, and he still has $800 million. That's ok to own a team last time I checked - but what's that got to do with anything?

    And I stand by my words - Tim Thomas is a coward. Feel free to disagree, but that's my opinion and you've given me no reason to think otherwise.
     
  22. Die-hard

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    Hey Rikster,

    The problem with the US bailout policies is they were political in nature - they weren't actually there to save companies and workers' jobs, they were there to save American companies and gain votes.

    The american car companies should have been forced to declare bankrupcy just like any other company in their shoes would - then they'd either re-organize and emerge stronger, or they would be sold to existing companies, or they would create new companies that would emerge. That's the way capitalism works - and unfortunately the way America has worked lately is socialism at its best, even though that's a curse word south of the border.

    The US will be fine - they'll either re-elect Obama or elect a republican, but not much will change either way. They've still got a large hole to dig themselves out of but they will eventually, the American people are willing to work as hard or harder than just about anybody which is their biggest strength.

    As for the oil debates - oil will continue to be used as the main means of energy in the US in our lifetimes. Perhaps in our kids' lifetimes that will change, but we'll see.
     
  23. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Canadian politicians are only now willing to bring up the notion of a private component to our health care system...The folks your father has treated are the better off Canadians who can afford to head south for immediate treatment...

    Not sure how to deal with the obesity issue but I think it needs to be addressed...Couldn't you start the discussion by stopping the practise of serving pizza and pop to elementry school kids and take it from there?...

    Regarding hybrids, my wife has owned a Prius and a Camry hybrid and a Highlander hybrid and currently is driving a Prius V and will not go back to gas only vehicles...The battery has a 8 year factory warranty and if she were to have to replace a battery today it would cost her $2000. If she had to replace a battery 10 years ago when she purchased her first hybrid it would have cost her $8000.00... And while she would agree with you that she has paid more initially for her hybrids than had she bought gas only, she has sure enjoyed the lower maintenance costs and the fuel economy coupled with the very high resale values...

    Those taxi companies I mentioned have driven 4 - 500,000 km's and have not had to replace batteries, so I think its worry not worth getting worried about....

    What is interesting to remember is that both the US and the Canadian government's have introduced consumption and emmissions standards that will take effect over the next 5 to 10 years...At the time the Americans announced their standards, Toyota had 4 vehicles in its line up that would meet those standards, Honda had 2 and no other car company had more than 1...

    Which explains why you are seeing car companies introducing greener and more fuel efficient vehicles....This is a big issue for the Detroit 3 who survive on trucks and SUV's...

    The problem for the Detroit companies is that they own very little patent rights to this green technology which explains in part why Ford and Toyota have agreed to partner in bringing to market hybrid pickups and SUV's which could see a Tundra hybrid as early as 2014 and a F150 hybrid in 2015...

    Toyota recovers some of its R&D money and hopefully is allowed to enter the heavy truck domain of the Detroit 3 without the political backlash and Ford gets access to the best hybrid technology available...

    Why is the F150 so popular, one of the reasons I think is simply because obese people cannot fit into smaller fuel efficient vehicles...

    Regarding hybrids being dull, can't disagree but am looking forward to the re introduction of the Supra as a hybrid and some of the soon to be introduced models like the Prius C...

    Saw an article on a round table meeting with some of the oil and gas heavy hitters in the US discussing the future... They say that the grid system can handle surplus power from electric cars and the day will come when a consumer can sell his/her surplus stored power from their electric car to the grid and make $300 - 400 a month doing so...

    They went on to say that if 250,000 electric car owners in California did this on a monthly basis, they could satisfy 1/12 of the energy needs of the State of California....

    Speaking of hybrids in general, I am of the opinion that they are nothing more than a stepping stone to the next technology, whether it be fuel cells or electric only or whatever the greatest minds in the world of automobile technology have in store for us...

    I think just like the horse carriage owner who wanted to expand his buisness at the turn of the century was in for a shock, so too are those who share your view that the world of cars and oil as we know it now will soon be in for a rude awakening....

    Take care...
     
  24. Sir Rodney

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    Hi Rikster,

    I was going to make a similar comment about the Canadians who went to the States due to the inconvenience of having to wait for care in Canada. It smacks so much of the I'm okay, screw you mentality that you see so much of in the political debates taking place. I agree that the future of Canadian Health Care will have a private component available in the not too distant future. Personally, I am not adverse to the idea. Every patient that drops off the wait list by paying their own tab moves everyone else up a notch. The key will be in maintaining the quality within the public system. No one bats an eye when a Vancouver Canuck gets instant treatment for an injury even though members of the general public might have waited months for the same operation. It may not be fair per se but that's far better than the system collapsing.

    It's very easy to throw a term like Socialism around with its connotation that it is a step above Communism. To me, a more apt description is Humanitarianism. We are part of a society that tries to look after its weakest members. We may not be able to provide the luxuries that some can obviously afford but their basic needs shouldn't be ignored. Why a system like Canadian Healthcare can be seen as something so threatening escapes me.

    I've really appreciated the debate that has gone on in this thread. I wish I shared Die Hard's optimism about the US recovery. I am concerned that we are witnessing a change in the Global Dynamics which shows very little reason for that kind of optimism. So much of what I've seen in the US political debates strikes me as being based on a desire to return to what was with no realistic means of bringing that about. If ever there was a time for the political parties to be working towards the common good, it's now. They'd rather play politics and that could prove to be their undoing. Scary doesn't begin to describe it.
     
  25. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    Canucks were not a healthy team, financially, up until they got the new stadium. It was Burke, then, that really turned the team into a profit machine.

    I just said that the top US teams perform just as well as the Canadian teams.

    To label the US as the bully of the financial world is despicable and offensive. With all the aide and the trade that the US does to other countries that actually improve because of it, i would really be careful in labeling the US as a bully in economics. Either you are clueless on economics, or just throwing an anti-American rant.

    We will be back on our feet once this socialist idiot leaves office, first, and then after some years of readjusting things the economy will get start turning around. Also, the situation in Europe is going to have an effect as well, so we will see.

    Forbes is guessing now? Good God....

    If the Canucks made over $140M in revenue, and the profit is $60M....then what is there to guess?

    But anyway.... not much more to debate here i guess.
     
  26. Die-hard

    Die-hard MVP

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    Read some history Peroni, and tell me the US isn't the financial bully of the world. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Ask people in Argentina, Chile, and Panama what they think of the US. I don't really care if you think it's offensive, it's the truth. I'm not really sure why you'd find it offensive anyway, the US is the richest country in the world (almost 25% of all the dollars in the world are there), it makes sense that they control a lot of the financial policy.

    I can also guarantee you I know more about economics than you do - I'm not going to start spouting off my track record because I think that's a garbage way to make a point - let's just say I have some experience in this field. Unless you're a professor of economics, you'd better watch who you call clueless.

    And of course Forbes guesses - you think the Canucks, Leafs, Habs and the rest of the private owners of the Canadian teams open up their books for Forbes to see? You're probably the same type of person who thinks that Bill Gates tells Forbes what he's worth, or that Forbes knows what the Russian oligarchs are worth - they are all educated guesses.

    You are right about one thing though - this debate is over. It's like trying to explain the world to a 3 year old - and yes I'm saying that to be offensive, because that's what I mean it to be. Tit for tat.
     
  27. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    Experience in what? A lemonade stand?

    Of course the US has a huge effect on the rest of the world, and in global trade agreements the US has a strong say, no doubt. But, without the US being open to trade, countries like Panama and others would have a much smaller economy.

    If the US was bullying with the nasty tone that you put into it then you wouldn't have Venezuela doing whatever it wants with its oil. Japan is not bullied. China is definitely not bullied although i think we should slap them a bit. We don't bully Germany....

    I mean, if you had any knowledge of this at least be more specific rather than sounding off like a pompous ass. Are you saying the US bullies third world countries? Developing? We are certainly not bullying Brazil. If anything our strong involvement with Brazil over the past decade has shown a significant rise in their economic growth. Developed countries? I keep up with my European economics as well and the only bullying in Europe is done by Germany, France, and the USSR imitator known as the European Union.

    So...how much for a lemonade?

    And by the way, even if there are ways to avoid showing the books in a "legal" manner, the law still requires to show your income in order to tax you. That information can be obtained by Forbes and WSJ.
    This post was edited on 2/2 1:59 PM by m_peroni
     
  28. Die-hard

    Die-hard MVP

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    Peroni, quite simply you're not worth my time. Take your veiled insults and ignorant thoughts about the world elsewhere, because you are a 20-something kid who has a lot of learning to do.

    I'm done talking with you, though I'm sure you'll want to get the last word anyway. Have at er.
     
  29. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    Who are you, Gingrich? You can insult others but others cannot insult you? You're the one making harsher attacks, by the way.

    I am pretty much 30 years old this year. We all have a lot of learning to do in our lives, no matter what age.

    Have a nice weekend :)
     
  30. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Hey m peroni, I've never seen Die Hard so worked up, what did you do to him?... :)

    Regarding your discussion on NHL finances, for me this is a debate about the need to contract a few team from the league...

    Gingrich, eh...Listening to his speech after the Florida results were in made me wonder if he is having a mental breakdown...

    Take care...
     
  31. m_peroni

    m_peroni Hall of Fame

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    I don't know! DH got so worked up over the Thomas thing more than any American, i think, and i just said that he came across as bitter about last June.

    I don't think we have to contract, but restructure the league geographically? Yes. Obviously it appears that the Coyotes will be gone within a couple of years. The Devils look to be in real trouble financially if they need to ask money from the league. It's just not easy to build a strong fan base when you've had decades of Rangers, Islanders, and Flyers hockey surrounding NJ.

    The Florida teams are doing fine financially. Florida is going in the right direction and the new owner keeps investing. Not only spending a lot in the off-season on new contracts, but the stadium got a nice makeover, now there is this new Club Red section which is like a restaurant/bar/night club. And of course what the media always fails to mention is the deal that the Panthers got with the BAC and Broward County. Heavily tipped in favor for SSE (Panthers) and it turned out profits actually for the SSE company. So, for the Panthers it's really a matter of time and good management to get a stronger fan base.

    Carolina is always an iffy. I don't think that they will last too long, but i think i've said that some years ago as well.

    Nashville can last, i think. A family friend of ours who lived in Nashville for many years in the late 90's told me that the place was packed. Then, college sports came with new buildings and such and the Preds were not a fun team to watch, so... things went down, but now they seem to be turning around.

    So...i think we should bring another team to Canada. I am interested in what Las Vegas can do with hockey if you make it an exciting building to go to.
     
  32. rikster

    rikster 2nd Team All-Star

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    Hi Sir Rodney and m peroni...

    I think in many ways the discussion we've had on politics and the financial health of the NHL are similar...

    In politics, I had no problem with Mitt Romneys comments about the poor because in my life I consider myself to be the most important person followed by my family and then by my God...Reason being is that if I don't have my act together then I'm of no use to anybody else...

    Unless the American Government gets its financial house in order then it can't offer the poor or the middle class any real, long term value...

    I agree that Die Hard may be overly optimisic on the ability of the American's to get their economy going in the near future, I liken the accumilation of debt to climbing a steep hill....

    Its a slow process to the top, but once there its a nasty tumble down the other side as the ability to service the debt becomes an issue and I'm of the opinion that the American Government is still accumilating debt with no real plan to begin repaying it...

    With the NHL, the league has had 30 teams long enough to know if its viable number and I still maintain that contraction is being put on the side burner while it assesses the viability of relocating teams to Europe...

    Regarding non traditional markets, I think the biggest mistake the league might have made was offering these franchises to owners with very little, if no experience owning and operating a professional hockey team...

    I thought Mark Chipman made a very interesting point recently when he said that while they were patiently waiting for an opportunity to acquire a franchise they were learning how to run a franchise in the AHL...

    Regarding the Democrats, I thought this article really spoke to how out of touch with reality the American President is...

    Take care...

    Who cares how many jobs they created...
     
  33. Die-hard

    Die-hard MVP

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    Hey Rikster,

    My issue is that I have zero desire to talk politics on a hockey board, none at all - and when I try to keep it to hockey I've got somebody who keeps bringing in politics and throwing out veiled insults. He also says he didn't realize he was being insulting - which either makes him completely ignorant or just a jerk (would like to use a stronger word but I won't).

    Until this board decides to leave politics out of hockey you won't see me around.
     
  34. Clint27

    Clint27 MVP

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    At the end of the day...

    ...who really cares if Thomas went or not? If no one had told us fans that Thomas hadn't gone, would anyone have noticed?? I don't think so...Unless he was one of the players standing directly behind the President.
    Politics is Politics and no matter who is running things, they pretty much stay the same...Canada or US....this was a sporting event, and should have stayed as such. If Thomas declines to go because of his political beliefs, fine, just don't write about it and draw attention to what he is saying!
    He should be pretty happy that he's living in a country where he can get paid millions of dollars to play a game. Thats what it is, a game. He does't have to worry, like his own father did, where he's going to get the money to pay for his kids' equipment!! He makes more money in one year than a Police Officer, Firefighter, or Paramedic will make in a career, so he should thank his lucky stars he lives where he does! We lived a year without hockey and things were fine....live a year without Firefighters, Police, and Paramedics, to name a few professions, and see how things work out!
    If Thomas wants to change the way things are in the US, then he should get involved in Politics and try to change things.
    Thinking about it for a while, why not take the money that was spent getting all the players to the White House, the money on food, Secret Service to protect the President, and donate that to a charity of some sort. At the end of the day, who the heck cares if a sports team visists a President or Prime Minister. Really?
     
  35. Sir Rodney

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    Re: At the end of the day...

    Hi Clint,

    I think this entire issue would have died a long time ago if Thomas hadn't tried to have it both ways. He continues to draw attention to himself and away from his team mates through his political posturing using Social Media. He chooses to ignore the fact that the line between Social Media and legitimate News Media has been blurred to the point of non-existence. Facebook is not private no matter how much one deludes himself/herself to the contrary. Every time he, as a public figure, expresses an opinion, he opens himself up to being questioned on that opinion. Personally, I could care less what Thomas' views are. He carries no more sway than any other individual. He keeps citing his right to express his opinions. In this day and age, rights seem to be all anyone cares about. My point in starting this thread was that Thomas also has a responsibility to his team. By constantly drawing attention to himself he has become a distraction. His team mates may say the appropriate things when interviewed but I would imagine deep down they are wanting to tell him to shut up already.

    Going back to your original question as to who cares whether he went or not. I agree that few would have noticed or cared for that matter. The moment he went "private" (in his mind) with his political views as to why he wasn't going, that changed everything and it continues to do so to this day. Ain't technology fun?
     
  36. Clint27

    Clint27 MVP

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    Re: At the end of the day...

    Hi Sir Rodney,

    I agree with what you said...Thomas knows that his opinions aren't "private" and I think he is hoping to use his position as an athlete to draw attention to his political beliefs. My opinion is that he knows exactly what he's doing; being in the public eye makes everything he does not private.
     

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